www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches is urgent

I am still Roman Catholic but I have opened my eyes.

We, who are or have been Roman, need some kind of padded room in which we can go and let out a huge primal scream of pain.

-ray

Dear Gordo,

I think your words here on experiencing the reality of the pain of separation touch on an important point. Ecumenism, true ecumenism, cannot be a 'cheap grace' process, on the contrary it will be costly. Unfortunately, the language of ecumenism doesn't always seem to convey this reality. There was a terrible rumpus here in Ireland a while back when an Augustinian friar invited an Anglican to concelebrate the Eucharist with him saying '�It is very sad when the Eucharist becomes a symbol of division and discord.� I listened to a radio phone-in show which debated the issue and it was clear that the public perception was that the big bad church was once again trying to stop people getting together with its silly, outmoded and bigoted rules 'sure, aren't we all friends now' 'where's the harm?' 'didn't Jesus eat with everybody' etc. It's hard to argue against that when 'all you need is love' thinking permeates just about every aspect of life today, including the modern church.


Brigid

Brigid,

Your post is a poignant example of the pain and confusion caused by the separation between Christians and other Christians. It doesn't stop at the boundaries of the Church, either. The world is definitely looking at the Church, and they seem to be challenging it to "get its act together." I believe that many people would like to follw Christ, but cannot honestly look at any church they've ever seen and behold the image of Christ. We can fault them for that (and they are certainly not blameless, either), or we can look within and see that there is indeed a beam in our own eye and deal with it from there.

In the "old days," it was much simpler: each side openly contended something to the effect that "THEY are no Christians of any kind, but only a false church, a counterfeit, a 'synagogue of Satan'." (And of course, the other party would return the compliment.) Now that this idea has been for the most part abandoned, it's harder to justify the on-going separations--especially to outsiders.

But ... you are absolutely right:


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Thanks, Ray! I've been visiting a few other places, as well as spending time with mi familia!

Spent yesterday pounding the ice - literally - playing hockey with my kids on a frozen lake. Slipped and fell on my upper back and head. (But I still scored!) Since then, I've been inside with my tea and Tylenol typing...typing...

A blessed Nativity to you as well!

Gordo

Hello All!

God is so wondrous in His mercy and His generosity � especially at this joyful time of year. In reviewing the posts on this thread, some thoughts for your consideration came to mind which I hope might be helpful.

What if both the Eastern and Western churches thought seriously about the following:

(1) What if God, looking down two thousand plus years ago at the passion and crucifixion of His only Son and Savior of the World---- perpetrated under Roman law (and politics) --- what if He decided then that Rome should be subsequently notable throughout history as the center of the Christian world---- as a testament to Whom the final victory truly belongs? Wouldn�t such a judgment be truly an awe-inspiring example of merciful and forgiving love??? If all of that would be so, (and it could be) then who are we to argue with HIM!

(2) If the above should be true, wouldn�t the Eastern Christian churches be wise to learn from the example of the elder brother in the Parable of the Prodigal Son? Shouldn�t the Eastern Churches accept His will gracefully, knowing that mercy will be theirs for their loyalty, despite some historical differences in the approach(es) of East and West towards how (a holy) life should be lived?

(3) Concerning marriage and divorce, shouldn�t we learn from the Gospel, that ideally, hopefully marriage will be a lifelong commitment � yet, as was true in Moses� time, and we are still learning, some hard hearts make this ideal all the more difficult to attain. Yet, He was merciful, and in a number of instances took the position that law should
serve �mankind� and not visa versa. Maybe the question should be whether the law (East and West) brings about holiness? Hopefully, it will be possible to avoid the temptation to argue whether the cross of the Eastern Churches is heavier than the Western one!

Roman law has traditionally expressed (by virtue of definition) the (unattainable) ideal. Yet, ideals still need to be articulated, even when practice (e.g. mercy) requires something quite less than ideal.

About indulgences and apparitions and the rosary, aren�t these all blessings that we can choose to pursue or not? Eastern churches have icons that have been sources of miracles. Eastern traditions e.g. Chotki, the Akathistos, etc. also include historical places of great healings, blessings, and spiritual as well as physical pilgrimage. Who are we to argue against God�s generosity to his creatures, whatever form it takes, to whomever He chooses to offer it?

Please forgive the simplicity of these thoughts. We have so much to be grateful for��Peace to you all and a blessed and holy Christmas and New Year! a (rather simple) student

Alice, I'm trying. I'm really trying . . .

-- John

We are all entitled to our opinions, when stated charitably.

Thank you John for curtailing the passions.

This is too loving and holy a season to argue about East vs. West.

It is the ONLY holiday that (mostly) all of Christendom celebrates the same thing on the same day, so let us take great delight in that love which we can all share in--for unto us a Saviour has been born!

In light of that message, does anything else really matter?

In Christ the Lord,
Alice, Moderator

ALICE:

Should John and I get the ice water to splash on this last post or should we just sit in our corners and wonder if we're writing in Sanskrit?

BOB

I don't quite see the parallel here. The elder brother failed to join his father in welcoming back the younger brother who had just repented of having squandered his inheritance and having lived in a manner that was quite objectionable. I don't think that applies to either the RC Church or the EO Church.

Again, you are not clear here what you mean by "accepting [God's] will." You seem to imply that "the writing is on the wall," and that the EOs are just being obstinate. Surely you can see, in charity, that a lot of EOs feel the same way towards the RCs.

Indulgences are a real "can of worms," both because they imply a certain theology about life after death that is foreign to the Eastern tradition as though it were an article of faith, and because they imply things about the nature of the Church that are also problematic from an Eastern perspective.

This is not to say that we will never be able to arrive at a common expression of our one faith, but that at present we must recognize both the absence of such an expression, and the fact that its absence causes many on both sides to think of each other as "different religions."


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Originally Posted By: A student
... wouldn�t the Eastern Christian churches be wise to learn from the example of the elder brother in the Parable of the Prodigal Son?

I don't quite see the parallel here. The elder brother failed to join his father in welcoming back the younger brother who had just repented of having squandered his inheritance and having lived in a manner that was quite objectionable. I don't think that applies to either the RC Church or the EO Church.

Dear Epiphanius,

I appreciate your question and wish to try to clarify.

My thinking was that God loves both the East and the West as the Father in the parable loved both of his sons. The father's response to the elder brother was so loving in the face of the elder brother's perceived lack of "special consideration" or appreciation for his loyalty and constancy.

I sometimes get the impression that people in the Eastern Churches feel a kind of "sour grapes" attitude because Rome seems to be....well.....dominant (i.e. preferred? by God maybe?). I was trying to suggest that God's plan, in the final analysis, must be a just one, and should be trusted for that, as the Father of the Prodigal Son showed Himself to be both just and merciful, to both of his sons.

Some of the back-and-forth between the East and West sounds to me like sibling rivalry.... that's the extent of the analogy.
Neither side seems to be able to get outside of themselves.

Positing "different religions" is like two brothers saying they don't belong to the same family.....It hurts, terribly!!

That said, I do believe that the spirit of Pentecost, which overcame all misunderstandings and mistranslations will prevail in the end, and I pray for that.

Peace to you all! A student

That would be the wrong impression.

Think of it this way .. your parents gave a brand new shiny car to you and your brother. You are to share the car. But after a while you find that your older brother has it more and more and you get to drive it less and less. You then approach your brother and say "We were supposed to share the car equally." and he responds "Oh yes.. equally .. but I am the elder brother and you are half my age and so equally means I get to use it twice as much as you."

Now if that was his reply to you .. time and time again .. and your older brother just refused to listen to reason and lorded over you ... would you not feel frustrated by his 'better than thou' attitude of dictating just was sharing equally means .. ?

It is not sour grapes .. it is a long frustration.

-ray

Indeed. Here is another way to look at the separation of Christian East and Christian West: Mom and Dad got a divorce, and we the kids have to choose which house to live in. Not fun.

But: Christmas is upon us ! So, let's put aside the sorrows for a few days, and enjoy some Christmas cheer ! Christ is born !!! Alleluia !!!

-- John