www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall National Anthem

The reason I started this thread is unlike songs like "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" that presume an assuredness that God is on our side, "God Bless America" is an entreaty asking God to bless America.

Unlike Kate Smith's and most versions we hear, Irving Berlin's complete version includes an introductory verse that is little used. The singer in Buffalo, Irish tenor Ronan Tynan, uses that verse and dedicates the song to members of the Armed Forces serving overseas. Very fitting and moving.

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer. "

"God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home."

God Bless America,
Bill

PS - "America the Beautiful" would make for a great national anthem.

I remember in the early 1970's when alot of liberals were criticizing the Star Spangled Banner, because in their opinion it was unfit to be our national anthem due to it's glorification of war. I thoroughly disagree with them however, because we're not speaking of some indefensible war of aggression half way around the world, but rather of a time early in our history when our capitol had been burned in an invasion by the world's most powerful army and the future of our Republic looked to be in serious doubt. I've always been extremely moved when I read how the invading British Army and Navy next turned their attention to Baltimore, and how Francis Scott Key watched the Battle for Fort McHenry from a British ship off in the distance, and wondered when the guns fell silent and he could no longer see the smaller American flag, if the Fort had been captured. And then when the huge 15 star flag was raised,and he knew the bombardment and been unsuccessful, the relief and pride he felt. That kind of war I have no problem glorifying.

You might be right about that.

As far as I know, the only person executed for war crimes was Captain Wirz of the Andersonville POW camp. Some people believe that he was unfairly singled out, that other camps were just a bed, maybe worse. Incidentally, he was hanged at a prison located on the grounds where the US Supreme Court Building now stands.

This thread included a reference to the imprisonment of Jefferson Davis, under quite harsh conditions, but neither he nor any Confederate military or political leaders were sent to the gallows. Even the ascendancy of the Radical Republicans after Lincoln's assasination did not lead to a lot of war crimes trials.

Lincoln, Grant and Sherman had all agreed that the need after the war was to bind the wounds of the nation, not to seek reprisals.

Somehow, I don't think Robert E. Lee would have sought revenge either. Had he won, I think he would have been happy to see "those people" (as he refered to the northern army) just go home.

All that said, certainly there were many US Arnmy soldiers who wanted "to make Carolina howl" and certainly there were crimainal acts against civilians. All wars seem to involve this problem.

I'm sure many of the soldiers thought they were on side of justice and that God was on their side. Most were there because the war was the macho adventure of the age, or because they had been drafted. But I'm not sure that anyone thought that this was a "Christian Army".

Certainly, General Sherman did not, being the author of the quotes "war is cruelty and you cannot refine it" as well as the more famous "war is all hell". He would have much preferred to have remained the headmaster of the school in Louisiana (which later grew into LSU), teaching some of the young men who would later become officers in the Confederate Army.

One of the most tragic and interesting war crimes stories was at Fort Pillow in Tennessee, where Confederate troops under Gen. Forrest killed most of the US Colored Troops assigned to the Fort, while taking most of the white troops as POWs. Gen. Forrest was not prosecuted, as far as I know. He later went on to be a founder of the Ku Klux Klan. I don't know if anyone thought that this was a Christian Army, either.


As to the charge that Sherman's march lead to the impoverishment of the South for 100 years, this was a complex problem based to a great degree on a southern establishment determined to keep things as close as they could to the old ways.

Although they could not maintain chattel slavery, they could and did establish the "jim crow" laws to keep the freedmen in their place. And the KKK to intimidate those who might think of protesting the segregation system, as well as those who just wanted to live peaceably.

I don't know exactly what the southern Christian leaders thought, but it seems to me that whatever one thought, these formerly enslaved poeple were, at worst, "the least of God's people."

The southern political and social leadership had a choice to emphasize education and community development, but they chose to lionize the Confederate leadership and keep the Freedmen in their place. The sad truth is that the South kept itself poor by directing its political and social efforts into the establishment and maintainance of segregation. No Yankee soldier had any say in the "massive resistance" movement --- closing the public schools in Virginia rather than integrating them.

The modern economic development of the South began once the system of segregation broke down and people began to think about and work on community development, education improvements, and looking to the future, instead of trying to maintain the past.

Bill,

I do agree with you that "God Bless America" and "America the Beautiful" would be good choices for a National Anthem. The problem with changing it is that too many people are used to the "Star Spangled Banner". You think we have had an argument about changes in the Divine Liturgy?

Speaking of the US National Anthem and potential problems:

I went through the frustrations of living in the USA during most of the Vietnam War years, when both the flag and the anthem became symbols, not of national unity, but of national discord. It wasn't pretty.

Then in 1972 I moved to Canada. A few weeks after arriving in Canada, I happened to go to the movies. Before the feature film was shown, the screen lit up with a waving Canadian flag, and the entire audience arose, quite peaceably, and sang the Canadian national anthem. Everyone then sat down again and enjoyed the film. I mused about the mayhem this would have caused only a few miles away (South of the Border, down Yankee way), and proceeded to enjoy living in a civilized society.

"Car ton bras sait porter l'epee, il sait portait la Croix!
Ton histoire est une epopee, des plus brilliants exploits!"

Fr. Serge

My comment about "America the Beautiful" was meant to be tongue in cheek. I'm not advocating changing the national anthem. I like the "Star Spangled Banner". Especially this verse, which we also never hear;

"O, thus be it ever when freemen shall stand,
Between their lov'd homes and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us as a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

The problem is people have a hard enough time singing and remembering the first verse of the real "National Anthem".
Try to get one person, let alone a group, to sing that last verse on key and in tune!

There is a time and place to use these other songs as well.

Again, hats off to Buffalo,
Bill

Here, here! Sherman was surely a butcher.

Well if that's the case then why the heck did they choose the Battle Hymn of the Republic?

Jason

In addition there is the "sappyness" factor to consider. I still vote for the original nat'l anthem: "Hail, Columbia!"

I thought it was "God save the King!"

By that mode of thinking there would be a few nat'l anthems:

"La Marcha Real"
"God Save the King"
"Bozhe tsarya khrani"
and whatever the heck the French used.

The "Marcha Real" would make the most sense as it has no words, thereby eliminating debates over lyrics...

Actually, they didn't. Julia Ward Howe copyrighted the hymn after the war, although I'm sure she sang some variant of it before that. But then she was singing back at the home front, to rally suport up North. Certainly it a triumphalist sort of song.

The army marched singing :

John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave,
But his truth is marching on!

Certainly, it would also eliminate debates over immigration.

The national anthem of monarchist France (= Catholic France) is Vive Henri Quatre.

I'd stick to God Bless America, or the Star Spangled Banner. (In a more serius post)

Both are of equel weight ot me, along with "America".