www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question about ROCOR

Dear Knowledgeable Friends,

Please forgive my ignorance in asking these questions, but I would appreciate a response...

My question is: Are Greek Orthodox (GOA) allowed to partake of Holy Communion in a ROCOR church? If not, why is that?

Also, what is the reason that ROCOR is not a part of SCOBA? Does it have anything to do with the old vs. new calendar?

Thank you,
Humbly,
Alice

Alice, I don't consider myself knowledgable on the subject, but I will give you what my understanding of the situation is.

Prior to the reconciliation of the ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate, the status was not that the ROCOR was in schism, but that it was not fully normalized among the other churches. Meaning primarily that clergy of the ROCOR only concelebrated with certain other churches (Jerusalam and the Serbians IIRC). It was a pastoral decision if laity were to commune across churches. Now that the situation is normalized with the MP, there should be no restrictions beyond the same restrictions that apply to receiving communion in any Orthodox Church.

Regarding SCOBA, I don't exactly know. I don't think it's the calendar since there are Old Calendar churches who participate in SCOBA (in addition to some who use both). The representation of the Moscow Patriarchate in the United States has never participated in SCOBA. Largely I would assume because they don't share the vision of SCOBA.

Thank you Andrew.

In Christ,
Alice

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and the Ecumenical Patriarchate never actually broke Communion with each other. It was not, for example, particularly unusual for the faithful of the Greek Archdiocese to go to Confession and Holy Communion at the Jordanville Monastery. I remember Archbishop Iakovos coming with clergy and chanters to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia cathedral in New York to serve a Pannychis for Metropolitan Anastassy. In England, the present Metropolitan Kallistos often went to serve Divine Liturgy for a women's monastery of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. And so on.

As to the Standing Conference, the Russian Orthodox Church OUtside of Russia was involved in the preparations . . . but then some of the other jurisdictions decided to include the Moscow Patriarchate's Exarchate in the USA, whereupon the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia quietly withdrew. The Patriarchal Russian Exarchate was a full member of the Standing Conference until what is now the OCA became autocephalous.

There were some Greek parishes and monasteries which took refuge, so to speak, in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, but about twenty years ago they found that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia was too "ecumenical" for their taste and they decamped en bloc to the world of spinning jurisdictions among the Greek Old Calendarists in Greece. They form what is now called "HOCNA" (I dislike these acronyms, but that one is a bit too funny to pass up!), which is in Communion with almost nobody except whatever Old Calendarist group in Greece it currently recognizes (I think they are part of the "Matthewite" constellation, but I'm by no means sure of that). Sad, but there it is.

I love the Julian Calendar and adhere to it quite happily - but in Greece the Calendar problem has led to a fissiparous and unstable conglomerate of ecclesial communities which persistently excommunicate one another.

Fr. Serge

Dear Father Serge,

Thank you for this information.

Respectfully,
In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

Even in the days before the union of ROCOR with the Church in Russia on 17 May 2007, you would have been free to receive Holy Communion in Jordanville had you gone to Confession there. (The Russian Church is still very much following the policy of Confession before each Communion.) Some Non-ROCOR Orthodox who may have been turned away from Communion may have thought it was because they were New Calendarists, when it was the fact that the priest knew they had not been to Confession that caused him to turn them away. This is not to say that there were not fanatics in our Church who had a Greek Old Calendarist mentality that thought we were the only pure Orthodox Church left. But these were influenced by the HOCNA types which mercifully left us.

More later....

Fr David Straut

Why, Fr. Serge?

***

Here in Brazil there are churches of ROCOR that remained ROCOR, it means, they haven't adhered to the union with the PM last year. Their bishop is the Bishop Agafangel.

Dear Philippe,

I'm afraid that you do not understand. The Church under Metropolitan Laurus is the only Church that is the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. ROCOR did not change its name when it established communion with the Moscow Patriarchate on 17 May 2007. It is still an Autonomous Church within the Local Russian Church, with its own Synod of Bishops, legal existence, property, by-laws, etc.

The former Bishop Agafangel and those parishes which decided to go into schism from their lawful Synod of Bishops may tell you that they are the real or original ROCOR, but you will find that they will have to incoporate under a different legal name. There is no just plain ROCOR except that which is contituted under the Synod of Bishops in New York with Metropolitan Laurus as its First Hierarch.

Yours in Christ,

Fr David Straut
St Elizabeth the New-Martyr Orthodox Church
Diocese of Eastern America and New York of
the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
The One and Only

LOL!! Good Father David, you beat me to the punch!



Alexandr

Although SCOBA has named itself the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America (why is its acronym not SCCOBA, I'd like to know?), not all canonical Orthodox jurisdictions are represented on it. Neither the [Moscow]Patriarchcal Churches in the USA nor the Jerusalem Patriarchate are represented on SCOBA. No one disputes that the MP or the JP are canonical, or that they both have many parishes in this country, more than some Jurisdictions represented on SCOBA. The fact that ROCOR is now an automomous part of the Church of Russia, but still completely ignored by SCOBA should be seen in this light.

I was floored when I saw that the official minutes of the Meetings of SCOBA since 17 May 2007 have completely ignored the fact that a great wound to the unity of the Othodox Church was finally healed after eighty years! Individual Hierarchs and their Jurisdictions have expressed the joy publically or privately, but I saw no notice of it whatsoever by SCOBA itself, let alone an invitation to ROCOR to join SCOBA.

The answer, my Dear, is politics. Ecclesistical politics. Sometimes they are just as dirty as the regular variety.

Fr David Straut

The former HOCNA (now HOMB or Holy Orthodox Metropolis of Boston) is one of the larger "Florinite" rather than Matthewite Old Calendarists. The Matthewites are even stricter than the Florinites, categorically considering the "New Calendar Churches" to be graceless. The Florinites also generally consider these to be graceless (save for the Cyprianite "Florinites") but do not erect this "gracelessness" of the canonical Orthodox into a dogma-like teaching that has to be accepted or else....

That's about as clear as mud.

(A comment concerning HOCNA and their ilk, not you AsianPilgrim.)

Fr David Straut

Dear Father David,

Please accept my agreement with your comment above!

Dear Philippe,

I've responded previously to questions about why I love and follow the Julian Calendar. At the moment, it would lead us rather far afield from this particular thread. To put it in a nutshell, the Typicon is predicated upon the Julian Calendar. The Gregorian Calendar and the so-called "New Julian Calendar" each create more problems than they solve.

Fr. Serge

From the news reports about the split in ROCOR post-May 17, one would think that large numbers had left ROCOR because of the reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. And yet, when I saw the new English website of the ROCOR-PSCA (the breakaway group of Bishop Agafangel) I realized that there were actually few break aways. I think there were only about 20 clergy, some of them from the ROCOR-V rather than ROCOR-L in the first place.

Anyway, I digress. My question is: around how many ROCOR parishes are there at present, how many clergy, monasteries, etc? The ROCOR website has marvelous pictures and is regularly updated but is quite obsolete with regards to the list of monasteries (they still have Lesna on the list, despite its departure for the Tikhonites) and no list of parishes at all.

I was speaking about the break-aways in the Northern Americas rather than throughout the world.