www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Altar Girls?

That might also explain why pews are tolerated as well

As an historical note: Catherine the Great received the Eucharist at the altar with the priests in both kinds from the hands of the Metropolitan every time she communed.

Her gender is the least of the problem in Catherine II's case!

Fr. Serge

How true ... I had the privilege of taking the history of imperial Russia under the guidance of (one of) the leading scholar on Catherine's reign: Jay Alexander. His book on Catherine (published by Oxford) is probably the best I have read.

In terms of this discussion, I understand well the pastoral reason for limiting the access of females to the altar in ordinary parish settings. (I would note that this limitation does not apply to female monastic communities where nuns routinely serve as "altar servers". I think here also of St. Nektarios' insistence on the right of women to serve in the altar.)

However, I can see no theological reason to limit women or to disallow them from serving as altar servers. Serving in the altar is not an ordained position -- if it was, many of the men who are serving now would be disbarred because of canonical proscriptions.

I think this is important to stress lest we begin to stray from the Gospel insistence that both males and females are equal in the eyes of God. (It can get a bit weird if we push this too far -- I know of one priest who refused to allow icons of female saints to be hung in the altar!? Can you imagine?!)

The pastoral reasons are well-known but these are disciplinary issues -- not theological. Again, I can see no theological reason why women cannot serve in the altar. If there is, I would like to know what it is.

How interesting. I would like to follow this up. Can you please provide me with the primary source that authenticates that the Empress Catherine received the Eucharist at the altar with the priests?
Thanks.

I'd be interested as well - it is my understanding from histories of Kyivan Rus' that Princess Olha and the subsequent princesses before the Muscovite era had an appointed place near the iconostas but outside the altar on the left (north) side.

Father Deacon Randolph-

where in Van Nuys did a female serve at the altar? I certainly have not been to every parish in the eparchy, but I've yet to witness a female altar server.

Sorry, I have never read this book and am not familiar with the scholar. I will have to look for it. Which university does he teach at?

It is importat to cite scholarly books by recognised and established scholars who read Russian. Church Slavonic and document everything.
There are always books out there written for popular consumption such as Catherine the Great by Henri Troyat, ( Joan Pinkham Translator from the French).

This is not a history book but a popular biography with generalizations, rumours, innuendo errors and of course no footnotes or Russian primary sources to verify statements.

Let me just give you some miscontrued statements from this book:
Page 153
Discussing the coronation ceremony with the Archbishop of Novgorod
In Uspensky Cathedral in the Kremlin, Moscow.

“Seated on her throne, motionless and hierarchical, ... the Archbishop of Novgorod gave her the holy unction. Now having become head of the Orthodox Church, she herself celebrated mass at the altar.

Page 157 refers to Catherine as the “temporal head of the Orthodox Church.”
Page 249 the authors refer to the Emperor Peter as the “ Head of the Greek Orthodox Church”


Page 349. “She conducted herself as head of the Orthodox Church.”

Of course we know that it is Christ who is head of the Orthodox Church according to Orthodox tradition. Perhaps the author was thinking of Queen Elizabeth 1 of England and the English tradition of the monarch with the Church of England, the Anglican Church.

But to get back to the topic: if the Empress Catherine did receive communion behind the iconostasis, does this also mean that the Empress Sophia also was granted that right?



Thanks for that info Diak. Is that recorded in the Primary Chronicle?

I know for example, in Bukovyna when it was under Moldavia, (after 1400) the Royal Family (Hospodar) stood closest to the iconostasis. If you visit the monasteries in Bukovyna, you can find 3 roomed churches and the royal family only were allowed in the first part, the nobility in the second part and the rest of us poor peasants in the third part.

Yes, Elizabeth Maria, Dr. Eve Tibbs was tonsured as a reader.
She is a prominent layperson in the Greek Orthodox Archdioces of America and an Orthodox theologian.


She has written a good article on the Eastern Orthodox Church and ecumenism which you can read here:
http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/ecumenical.htm

The Empress of Austria-Hungary, being the Apostolic Queen, was entitled to sit within the altar. This caused quite a shock in Pittsburgh at the consecration of Bishop Daniel Ivancho!

Fr. Serge

Dr. Alexander is professor (emeritus) of Russian History at the University of Kansas. You can read his brief CV here: http://www.history.ku.edu/faculty/alexander/index.shtml

For those who are scholars in the area of Russian History, Dr. Alexander is a 'living legend' -- this is especially true of his scholarship vis-a-vis Catherine the Great.

I see you incorrectly identified him as Jay Alexander rather than John T. Alexander as on the University of Kansas web site.

In any event, in his book he does not state:


In the section on her coronation he states on pages 64-65:
"Anointed by the Archbishop of Novgorod, she took communion and then walked outside to pay her respects to the icons in the nearby cathedrals of the Archangel and the Annunciation.”

The author also mentions that Catherine placed the crown on her head herself following the example of the Empress Elizabeth. perhaps this was the quote you were thinking of from this book.

His official name is John. But "Jay" is what his friends call him.

The note about Catherine receiving communion at the altar is not from his book but from my indepth discussions with him about the reign of Catherine.

Слава Ісусу Христy

I remember reading somewhere that the term "Royal Doors" of the iconostas were so named because the tsar also entered to receive Communion at the altar. Am I wrong?...probably.

To-day it is just too hot here!!!!!! and I mean the weather!!!!!!!

Z Bohom
Nycholaij

As I recall the "Royal Doors" were the doors separating the narthex from the nave at the two St. Sophia's - Constantinople and Kyiv through which the respective royal retinues entered for services. The central doors on the iconostas were called the "Holy Doors".
FDRLB