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I have seen alot of post that say that people are Orthodox in communion with Rome so I was wondering if they have ever approached the subject of the state of the soul after death.

St. Mark at the council of Florence in 1439 wrote against the latin teaching of purgatory and the absolutism of "heaven" and "hell". This even goes back to the council of Lyons(12??) with this teaching.

Do the Orthodox in communion with Rome accept Purgatory?Do they accept the Toll houses? And I am still fuzzy on these councils being ecumenical or not.
Chad

I will quickly remind posters to discuss this issue without polemics and with great charity.

I will note as a starting point that the dogmatic elements of purgatory (a Latin term we in the East do not employ) are essentially that 1) there is a journey of the soul upon death and 2) prayers for those on the journey are efficacious. The Eastern Catholic Churches leave it at that. The theology of indulgences (etc.) are Latin doctrine. Legitimate. But not ours.

The theology of toll houses is considered theologoumena, as it is in Orthodoxy. While there are those in Orthodoxy who wish to dogmatize it one must be careful. There are certainly dogmatic elements (like the same ones in the Roman dogmatic teaching on purgatory). But many claim it is something other then as the Orthodox Church presents it (on the internet they are commonly fundamentalists looking to misunderstand purgatory and condemn it). The Orthodox Church generally presents the message as true but the details (the description of heaven) as a cross between weak and unimportant. Eastern Catholics have only issued general teachings here, but most likely would agree.

The best Orthodox theological understanding I've seen on this is by Father Michael Pomazansky (Jordanville). But I do not have it handy. I'd say accurate definitions are necessary to such a discussion.

I really enjoyed Father Seraphim Rose's work The Soul After Death. He speaks of the Toll Houses and the Patristic understanding of it. I think, and I may be wrong, the the Latin idea of Purgatory and the Toll houses may be trying to explain the same thing- the mystery of what happens to our Soul after death as we face Our Lord, God and Savior and His Just judgement-but the Latin West and Greek East came up with two theological concepts- both of which in my mind are divinely inspired. I am much more inclined to the Toll Houses and Father Seraphim. In the end let us pray for a good defense before the awesome judgement seat of Christ.

I agree with the Administrator. The official Eastern Catholic catechism in the United States, Light for Life: Part One-The Mystery Believed, is extremely terse on the subject.


Footnote 12:


It should also be pointed out that the Latin Church has backed away from certain aspects of the medieval doctrine of purgatory, including the description of purgatory as a "place" (it is now described as a "state"), and of the torments of purgatory being "physical". What today is taught might best be described as "purgatory lite" and differs little from the fundamental doctrine held by the universal Church.

It will be interesting to see if the tollhouses are spoken of in the upcoming Ukrainian Catholic Catechism.

Here is a very balanced and reasoned piece of writing on the toll houses by a convert Dr Jurretta Hecksher

"Toll Houses: dogma, a logic of damnation, and taking the implications seriously"

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?p=33989

Sacred scripture tells us:

"It is a holy and pious thought to make expiation for the dead,
that they might be delivered from their sin."

"Sancta et pia cogitatio, unde pro defunctis expiationem fecit, ut a peccato solverentur."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible...va-vulgata_vt_ii-maccabaeorum_lt.html#12

~ Macc 12:46

I'd like to comment if I may, for those who don't know the context of this.

What had happened was that many of the dead Jewish soldiers were found to have small idols in their clothing. They had been worshipping idols and the text says that this idolatry is the reason God allowed them to be slain in battle.

So the surviving soldiers began to offer profound prayers that this dreadful sin would be forgiven and Judas Maccabeus decided to send a large quantity of silver to the Jerusalem temple for prayers for the forgivness of these idolators.

The whole incident substantiates not just prayers for the dead but the hope and belief that sin, even very serious sin, may be forgiven by God even after death.

2 Macc 12: 39-46

While Eastern Orthodox believe that sin may be forgiven after death, I have to admit that I do not know if Eastern Catholics share this belief with us. Does anyone know about this? Again, we hope that this will also be a subject addressed in the new Ukrainian Greek Catholic Catechism.

Our prayers for the repose of the departed are the same as those of the Orthodox. We believe what we pray.

I am pleased to hear that.

Something interesting from the Coptic Church which seems to have adopted the Roman Catholic position (although I welcome any correction to my perception of that.)

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I was surprised by the following quote:-

Bishop Hilarion: Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according to their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell. I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail.

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx

Do we have any Coptic or Coptic Catholic members? How would your faithful view this matter?

I'm trying to be good, but . . .

Is anybody else getting images of Purgatory being a place with no fresh-baked cookies?



hawk

Belief in the so called Toll Hoses is a pious opinion. It is NOT doctrine. While not outside the bounds of the Orthodox Faith it is controversial in certain quarters. As for purgatory, the Latin understanding of the concept is not generally accepted in Orthodoxy.

Though note that the Latin position has been converging with the Orthodox position for the last fifty years or so.