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Christ is in our midst!!
It think the word "union" is the word that will be the stumbling block. Fr. Taft's rather long and insightful analysis put forward the idea that "communion is about all we can hope for." He went on to say that with the long history we have had divided and with the psychology of past attempts at "union," the goal of "communion" is a better choice of word and of a future structure. Communion does not carry the baggage that union does: Florence and Lyons, for example. Communion means that all sides will have to learn to live with things that they are not now comfortable with. For example, the Oriental Congregation, the bane of Eastern Catholics, may have to be abolished because no Orthodox would stand for the kind of treatment that Eastern Catholics live with under that dicastry.
The election of patriarchs in the Oriental Churches is another issue. Just look at the Maronite situation at this time. The Orthodox I know wonder why a patriarch must submit his retirement request to Rome and why Rome can both accept it or hold onto it, not to mention why the sui juris Church's Synod cannot handle this type of issue independently without reference to Rome at all. That doesn't even begin to discuss the issue of episcopal appointments in general, either.
The UOJ issue is another one that is usually linked in thought to the idea of union over against communion. It's a non-starter for the Orthodox.
I don't have a link to the thread in the forum that links Father Taft's assessment, but it might shed some light on the issue.
In Christ,
Bob
Last edited by theophan; 03/03/11 07:54 PM.
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One key line in Unitatis Redintegratio says However, it is evident that, when individuals wish for full Catholic communion, their preparation and reconciliation is an undertaking which of its nature is distinct from ecumenical action. But there seems to be a real danger of confusing the two when Catholics speak of the ordinariate -- as evidenced by the heading "ecumenism’s goal is union with Pope" (which is a paraphrase of Father Geissler). I've been thinking about that since I posted that link a couple hours ago, and now I see that Bob and Nelson both had a similar reaction to it.
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What is wrong with married Priests? St. Peter was a married pope.
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Such beautiful words! It is with great joy and deep gratitude, therefore, that the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church makes known her intention to enter the American Ordinariate under the provisions of Anglicanorum coetibus, and looks forward to serving with all our brothers and sisters in Christ to undo the Reformation and restore the visible, corporate unity of Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. [ theanglocatholic.com] We had an interesting visitor to our parish last Sunday. She became a religious as an Anglican, was given permission to profess herself as a hermit nun by her bishop, was then received into the Catholic Church but remains under her Anglican bishop in FL because he's awaiting reception with his flock into the Catholic Church, perhaps with this same group.
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For example, the Oriental Congregation, the bane of Eastern Catholics, may have to be abolished because no Orthodox would stand for the kind of treatment that Eastern Catholics live with under that dicastry. I'm not sure it would need to be abolished. Transformed, at least.
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For example, the Oriental Congregation, the bane of Eastern Catholics, may have to be abolished because no Orthodox would stand for the kind of treatment that Eastern Catholics live with under that dicastry. I'm not sure it would need to be abolished. Transformed, at least. Agreed, Peter. In what manner? Bob, what "kind of treatment that Eastern Catholics live with under that dicastry [sic]"? Patriarchs and Major Archbishops of the Eastern Catholic Churches are, by their own right, members of the Oriental Congregation! Do you mean to say that the Chief Hierarchs of the Eastern Churches are complicit in the "bad" treatment of Eastern Catholics? Amado
Last edited by Amadeus; 03/05/11 03:47 PM.
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Do you mean to say that the Chief Hierarchs of the Eastern Churches are complicit in the "bad" treatment of Eastern Catholics? If by complicit you mean remaining in full communion with Rome despite the aforementioned treatment, then yes they are complicit.
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So, does that mean the Church is working on a Lutheran ordinariate???
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It looks like it but I am not sure.
Stephanos I
(a former lutheran)
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So, does that mean the Church is working on a Lutheran ordinariate??? That's a good question. (I guess CatholicCulture.org also considers it a good question, since they included it in the headline.) I took a look at the link provided, but it doesn't say very much more about that possibility: The Ordinariate is provided for Anglicans; but could
this model be used for other groups? We know from
Forward in Faith contacts in North America and
Scandinavia that there are Lutherans who may well
benefit from a similar model to the Ordinariate, would
this be possible? The CDF acknowledged that this was
an important question. Already they were receiving
similar requests from Lutherans. Would this model be
of use to them? “The Holy Father will do all he can
to bring other Christians into unity.” ‘Seek ye first the
Kingdom of God and everything else will be given you.’
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I guess we'll have to wait then.. it would be cool, though
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What does he say that would be controversial to any Orthodox
Having a goal of "union with the Pope" doesn't seem at odds with the goal of dialogue with either Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, does it? I'm not Orthodox, but I'll tell you what I think. I have no object to the statement: "Thus in the Ordinariates the Catholic Church is showing that its imaginative embrace of diversity, even complexity, is the measure of how universal it is." In fact, I applaud that statement -- there's nothing wrong with saying that we can help ecumenism along by getting our own act together. But some of the other statements are a bit worrisome. Read this paragraph: The Ordinariate is very important to the Holy
Father. In the area of ecumenism it strengthens the
Catholic Church’s approach in two ways. It promotes
sincere dialogue with a Christian defence of life, and
the promotion of peace. The goal of the ecumenical
movement is complete visible union with one Christ
and with Peter in one Church. We must co-operate
and grow together.” together with this one: It is the view of the CDF that ecumenical dialogue
must be honest and sincere. “One’s conscience must be
followed at all times, it is sacred. ARCIC will continue,
so official dialogue continues; yet Anglicanorum
Coetibus makes the goal of that dialogue clear.”
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Bishop Hilarion essentially says the exact same thing is the goal of ecumenism for Orthodox Churches: Perhaps it would be appropriate at this point to recall that for the Orthodox Church the only ecumenical dialogue which is meaningful is that which leads its partners to a better appreciation and understanding of the Orthodox tradition. One hundred years ago, in 1903, the Russian Orthodox Church in its ‘Response to the Letter of the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate’ formulated its method of theological dialogue with the Anglicans and the Old Catholics in the following way:
There must be fraternal readiness to help them by explanations, normal consideration for their best wishes, all possible forbearance towards their natural perplexities, given the age-old division, but at the same time the firm confession of the truth of our Universal Church… Our task with regard to them should be… without putting before them unnecessary obstacle for union by being inappropriately intolerant and suspicious… to interpret for them our faith and unchangeable conviction that it is only our Eastern Orthodox Church, which has preserved intact the entire pledge of Christ, that is at present the Universal Church, and thus to show them in fact what they should consider and decide upon if they really believe that salvation is bound up with life in the Church and sincerely wish to be united with her…
This statement, which was included in the ‘Basic Principles of the Attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church to the Other Christian Confessions’ (2000), points very clearly to the motivation behind our ecumenical involvement. We, the Orthodox, do not aim at imposing our culture, ethos, rite and other peculiarities of ‘Byzantine’ Orthodoxy onto other Christians. At the same time we firmly believe that all major features of the original Christian Tradition have been preserved intact by the Orthodox Church. We believe therefore that the restoration of full communion among the various denominations is possible only within this Tradition, which has to be rediscovered by those Christians who for various reasons have lost or modified it in their doctrine and practice.
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What's the problem, Peter, with those statements in your view?
Alexis
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Surely there is something disproportionate in speaking of union with Christ and Peter!
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