www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy LIGHTING THE LAMPS - A BASIC QUESTION OF WHEN IS THE PROPER TIME

Realizing that this is a very basic question - but frankly it's never been answered to my satisfaction.

I served on the altar at a church and Lamplighting was as I recall done while the Lamplighting psalms were sung so that as the Entrance procession was done - we were able to process and chant - We have seen The True Light - without fumbling with the lights

What is the proper time to light the lamps during Vespers?

Any theology behind the TIME to light the lamps?

How should the transition from Lamplighting Psalms and Lamp Lighting Hymn be done?

Mechanics for sure - but I'm a bit confused.

Lutheran "cathedral Vespers" as introduced in the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship calls for handcandles held by congregants to be lighted from a Vespers candle carried in procession as the lamplighting verses are sung. This is recommended only for the eve of Sundays and Festivals. The verses are relatively short, so with a large congregation there would be extended pauses between the verses.

Other lamps are then lighted from the Vesper candle (whether in simple Vespers or cathedral Vespers) AS "Joyous light of glory..." is sung...generally by a taper hand candle or small acolyte wand. Again, it is relatively short, so those doing the lighting must move quickly, yet not so swiftly as to extinguish the flame as it is carried.

Transitions are in silence.

John,

No question is too basic and we all learn friom the answers - so never hesitate to ask.

Besides which, only here can one look forward to informed replies from several different ecclesial perspectives - including that of the Lutherans, thanks to our dear friend and brother, Pastor Thomas. I defy anyone to find themselves a truly Eastern forum with the very real diversity that is ours everyday.

May years,

Neil

I would light the candles at Psalm 140, while the deacon incenses. The Holy Doors are opened at Glory and the entrance begins at Now and Ever. There are long melodies in the Byzantine system to cover the action, and for the Dogmatica and Festal Theotokia for major feasts in all systems. the Entrance is lead by the candlebearers, followed by the deacon with the kadyllo, and then by the priest with his "phelonion hanging freely" (if he is the odd man who even has the old style). They say the litany for the entrance silently. Then "Wisdom, be attentive/stand aright" and Joyful Light is sung, and they enter and the deacon incenses everything again. Usually, though, I've seen only a priest serve, and he incenses just the Iconostasis and then enters and incenses the Alter. I've seen the lights extinguished at the Aposticha (when there is a vigil or litija), but I've also seen the lights left on to the end as well. There is no entrance at daily vespers (feasts of three or six stichera).

I've gleaned this from the Ordo, as well as what I've seen, mostly Greek practice. The first page of the Vespers section of the Ordo can be found here: http://www.patronagechurch.com/Ordo-English-1955/htm/010.htm

I also recommend Evening Worship in the Orthodox Church by Nicholas Uspensky. A lot of the allegorical meaning of Vespers is tied to the Vigil, and in this case we start with original creation, through the Fall. The meaning of the lighting of the candles is the Christ is the true Light.

I hope this helps and is not off track.

In Christ,
Adam

no not off track at all ...

in fact the way you describe is what I am familiar with.

The thing that threw me off was a visit by a seminarian who as I was serving vespers for the 300th time told me not to light the lamps until O Joyful LIght -

He may have been mistaken - or maybe that was the way they did it at the seminary.

It seems a natural to light them at the Psalms and then you are able to be Joyful abou tthe New LIght brought into the evening (and your life)

Thomas Hopko said something like - some customs are done because that is the way they always did it (and nobody can tell you why) - and some customs (rubrics) even ancient ones are done wrong - an interesting comment.

He goes on to comment that the Divine Liturgies and Liturgical actions have always been defined SYMBOLICALLY and instead we should be focusing on what we are doing - what is happening to us - at the moment.


So my new goal - to really understand what action (spiritually, physically, religiously) I am doing - and what is happening to me and what response (at a superficial and deeper level) I must be doing in Liturgical actions. (Hopko says a firm foundation in scriptural knowledge is the way to achieve this state)

Thank you for this reference. I ordered a used copy and it's on its way to me.


We so rarely have Vespers with a priest in my parish. Fr. Eugene asked me to light things at one and when I asked when I understood him to say at O Gladsome Light. He knew his sheep and may have thought I wouldn't be able to remember without the clue of the word "Light". How right he likely was. Now that we are doing Reader's Vespers I light them at that time. I suspect it's done differently at St. Nicholas and I just wasn't tuned in to it when I've been there. Now I will be, hopefully more so after getting into Evening Worship. I'll be at St. Nicholas for Vespers this Sat. after their annual Bazaar.

The preceding posts reinforce my belief that the 1978 Lutheran Vespers are a wonderful meld of Eastern and Western practices. I had not mentioned previously that, following Psalm 141 and two additional Psalms, Lessons, and the Magnificat the Intercessions are essentially the great ektania from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

This is the convention I was taught to use (UGCC usage).
Vespers: Dark at the beginning, gradually light during Psalm 140 so that the entirety of the church is lit at the Dogmatikon. Lights stay on until the Song of Simeon, at which they are extinguished.

"Theologically" there are any number of implications - the True Light, the Word is hymned and praised as the redemption from the fall of Adam in the stikhera and Dogmatika, and comes in response to our heartfelt realization of "O Lord, I cry to You, hear me" when we realize we have sinned and like Adam distanced ourselves from Him. The Incarnation is always praised in the Dogmatika, and it is fitting that the lights be fully lit when this is sung to acclaim the Light becoming Man for our salvation along with the singing of "Tranquil Light", "Phos Hilarion", is one of the most ancient liturgical hymns of the Church that directly affirms our belief as Christ, Light of the Holy Glory of the Father and Light of the Nations. Worship has to involve all of our senses, all of our being to be "real". The extinguishing at the Song of Simeon brings to mind the anticipation of the completion of all things in the glorious Parousia, that we return from the church back into the darkness having celebrated and been illuminated by the Tranquil Light.

Equally interesting are the lamp-lighting conventions for Matins, although there are more variations than Vespers.

Can you enlighten me on the Matins lightins?

We do Matins at our church at 9am every 2nd and 4th Sundays

I KNOW that this is not the proper time but this was chosen long before I joined this church as a way for people to at least know what Matins are.

John Haydukovich
p.s. there are massive various in Matins as they are chanted from day to day from my perspective!

Well, it seemed like a good idea to see when St. Nicholas lights theirs... but there were no lamps lit tonight at Vespers after the Bazaar.
However Evening Worship was waiting in my mail box when we got back home!

Matins has lots of potential variations of lamp-lighting. The convention we use for Sundays is: lamps off during the beginning from the Royal Office (if taken) and the Hexapsalm through the Litany. The lamps are lit when "The Lord is God" and Troparia are sung, and then extinguished when the Kathisma and Sessional Hymns are sung. The lamps are lit for the Polyeleos, "Host of Angels", Prokimen, "Let everything that has breath", and the Gospel. The lamps are then extinguished during Psalm 50 and the Canon. We light the lamps during the Eighth Ode of the Canon so when the deacon is before the Icon of the Mother of God and chants "Let us greatly extol the Theotokos and the Mother of Light..." everything is lit. There are a number of variations I have seen at this point including not lighting until the Praises, or at the Exapostilaria, or not until the Great Doxology when the priest intones "Glory to You Who have shown us the Light...".

The lamps then stay lit until the dismissal and are extinguished during the First Hour, and lit again immediately before the Liturgy (at the end of the last hour, depending on how far we get, Third or Sixth Hour before Liturgy). Again this is what we use, and there are any number of variations on this theme.

Wow ... I am just now getting into Matins - and I yearn to know more ...

Do you know this just from the rubrics of your church or is there publications and theological books on the subject?