www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Gregorian Calendar and The Julian Calendar

brothers in Christ. Both Orthodox, Catholic and protestant.

You seem to ask why is it of such importance that we unite on the dates of Easter because there are so much greater divisions than just the dates of Easter? Is this your logic?

Ok well if so then I must contend strongly against holding such firm beliefs. The reason Easter must come first is because it is at the root of all unity. If we unite on something as important as that ( because there can only be a celebration of One resurrection and there really was only one resurrection )Then unity of both the Sister Churches ( East and West ) on all topics will be come much easier after this.

A lot of you seem to have ventured into harmful talk now that destroys unity, such as ''Oh my Calenders the best and most correct and your Calender ( Be it Gregorian or Julian which ever side you take ) is wrong.

If we keep talking like this then unity of the Easter dates is going to become impossible. In order for unity to be acheived we need the grace of Humbleness and Humility. It is the devil who likes to cause divisions and it is Jesus who unites, and it is the devil who likes to ''talk'' and it is Jesus who likes to ''get it done''.

As the article said, both Churches have to agree on one date, either through use of modern science, or bowing in humility and choosing just one calendar. I'm not a scholar, I'm not a theologian, I'm not even a good Christian, but I really want to see our Hierarchy come together and unite these dates. This will not likely happen unless we ourselves are united in our strong belief that the Easter dates must be united, to sign the petition to have one date for Easter to the members of all the Churches and to press them on this important subject.

We need to refrain from harmful talk such as ''my calendar is correct and your one is wrong''. I agree with Padraig that both churches need to make use of present astronomical technology to agree on a date. Either that, or one will have to bow to the other, but the dates have to be united either way. We can not continue to celebrate two resurrections. There is only one resurrection, and we should be One in agreement on this. A divided Christianity isnt very appealing to the pagan is it? but a united one makes the world an easier place to convert and heal.

Stephen

Bravo! to your entire, empassionate post ...

FWIW it seems to me that in the grand scheme of things this would be such a small consession on everyone's part, yet go such a long way to answering Christ's own fervent prayer, that we "all be as one", even if significant obstacles to full unity still remain.

And if it's so important to some that Catholics concede (lest the "solution" be deferential to a "Catholic answer"), does anyone really think that Catholics would be so incensed if such a compromise were to allow us to celebrate the Great Pasch universally as Christians? Is it not precisely this type of leadership that we Catholics would expect from the Catholic Church?


I too pray this becomes a first step toward a greater vision of unity among Christians, whatever that may ultimately be ...

Rybak,

On page one we had a plea for unity, a link to an excellent article giving hope for unity, and a link to a petition for unity, which I signed. Then on page two you seemed to come in with an "auto-response" pointing fingers at Rome. It entirely changed the tone of the thread, and it is responses such as these on the many areas of disagreement that make me despair that communion will be achieved in my lifetime, or even that of my children.

Like Stuart and Stephen I would be happy to reckon Pascha according to the Julian calendar for the sake of unity. I would hope that dialogue would continue on a long term solution for an accurate reckoning however. The adoption of the revised Julian calendar by the synod of 1923 acknowledged and repaired the calendar for fixed feasts, although I realize that is also a big source of disagreement and its use is not uniform in the Orthodox Churches.

At any rate, my desire is to see both sides work together using modern technology to establish a common and mutually acceptable date, for the sake of unity in Christ.

The internet is a vast encyclopedia of true and false data and information. A forum is a place where periodically that data and information is repeatedly presented and analyzed.

I've been a participant in the five previous threads of which I'm aware that have dealt with this topic; see Old Calendar Catholics? and the links to the three threads in my post in Common Easter date?.

Given ALL the discussion so far of which this thread is something of a microcosm, several basic questions arise. Here is an important one:

How important or necessary is it to adhere to the prescription attributed to Nicaea I in reckoning the date of Pascha/Easter?

Background: Everyone it seems accepts that Pascha/Easter is according to Nicaea I to be celebrated on the Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox? Can this be abandoned in favor of a unified date? For instance, keeping only the Sunday part, Easter is on some designated Sunday, say the second one, of April. Or going further, is it acceptable for the sake of unity to abandon the prescription and adopt instead, for instance, the previously held (but suppressed) tradition of the Quartodecimanism [en.wikipedia.org]?

It's important to maintain a connection between the Jewish Passover and the Christian Pascha. Both are linked to the solar and lunar cycles, and both should continue to do so. It is not necessary that the old and new Passovers should fall together (Quartodecimanism), but we have come far enough that we should not mind if they do. Proselytizing Judaism poses no threat to the Church.

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None of this matters for us because we are not the ones who decide the dates of Easter when it comes down to it, it is the Hierarchy who do this, and they know more about this subject than we do. We must not be walking around with the title ''self styled expert'' above our heads because we are not.

All we need be for the time being is united on the commitment of having one date for Easter, signing the petition and stressing to Our Hierarchy that we desire this date to be resolved, and they will do the rest.

Endless threads and chats about the Julian calendar this and council that and council this....as lay people....is again nothing but talk that lacks commitment in wanting a ''One Date'' for Easter. If we want One date we will sign the petition, pray and allow the Holy Spirit to use those he has called into understanding this subject, bring us together.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not very good at the written word. But all is written which much great love for all of you.

Stephen

Such trust in the hierarchy is a touching example of the victory of faith over experience.

Padraig,

My intention is simply to point out some very real differences on this old and thorny issue, not to "stir the pot" or throw cold water on an otherwise well-meaning post. The fact is, it isn't realistic to think it is simply going to go away if we sign a petition.

The Orthodox are divided on this issue and until that is resolved I think there can be no resolving the issue with regards to the Catholic churches. It still boggles my mind that Mt. Athos is on one side of the issue and Greece and the EP are on the other.

Earlier Orthodox councils, synods and many individual heirarchs are on record as having condemned the calendar change and even anathematized those who observe the "heretical" calendar. There can be no "petitioning" of Orthodox heirarchs to get them to concede on this calendar issue, consequently.

Keep in mind the synod of 1923 was not a pan-Orthodox effort and is viewed as having no authority by most Orthodox. I did read somewhere, can't remember at this moment, that the synod did not actually make any decision about adopting the Gregorian calendar.

While some Orthodox churches follow the new calendar, and Stuart mentioned most jurisdictions and he is correct, the great majority of Orthodox faithful continue to follow the traditional calendar because the number of believers in their churches is so much greater.

I had hoped that Alexandr might join us in this thread, but perhaps he is away from the forum or just tired of talking about the issue when it comes up now and then.

My final thoughts on this subject would be just to write again what I did earlier, that for most Orthodox it is simply unthinkable to consider changing the calendar - for reasons stated previously and definitely not to be taken (or mis-taken) lightly by those of the Western tradition.

I gave up some time ago thinking that the break in communion between Orthodox and Catholic churches would end in my lifetime. It was a very long time in coming and there is every reason to think that it will take a long time to end - if it ever does.

While I, for one, would be happy to see a common celebration, like my brother, Rybak, I have doubts it will be happening anytime soon. The most one can likely expect in our lifetimes might be for most Eastern Christians - Orthodox and Catholics - to come to common agreement.

I don't expect that the Latin Church will ever do so, not because of any particular intransigence or disrespect on its part but because the reality of its existence is that its membership is huge by comparison to we of the East.

And its membership is culturally and civilly committed to Western tradition, which is not changing anytime soon - and probably never. I feel absolute confidence in saying that no one, neither presbyter, hierarch, nor pope, is going to convince Western Christians that they want or need to step out of line with the secular world over issues of calendar. If no one has noticed, it's nearly impossible to get them to adopt wholesale acceptance of actual doctrinal or dogmatic matters - and they aren't about to conclude that a calendar is either of those in nature.

Enough from me, because I have no intent of becoming involved in a calendar debate. As Deacon Tony notes, the topic has been beaten to death myriad times in the past (and I suspect he's unintentionally undercounted the number of threads devoted it). My main point in posting is to caution that the subject has been so heated in the past as to have required locking threads. Don't let that happen here - if it does, the topic will be interdicted for some period thereafter (or until 'next Tishabob', best defined as the day after never and before forever). End of public service announcement.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks Neil. The thread itself was not created to spark debate on which calendar is right or wrong, but a debate coming into the thread looked almost inevitable I guess.

However I would invite people just to be committed to having a one date for Easter. I disagree with the negative outlook on this that it wont happen anytime soon. How do we know? Only God knows. But one thing is for sure, if we as a Christian community are not united in our commitment to sign something as a simple as a petition, to show the Hierarchy of our Churches our commitment on having a one date for Easter, then we can bet our bottom dollar that unity will take a lot longer than expected and may never happen.

Unity of the Easter dates all rests on us as a whole Church, each with their ability to bring that unity about. The uneducated ones such as ourselves, signing the petition to alert the more educated ones ( Hierarchy ) to also work for unity. If we at least do this then we allow the Holy Spirit to enter and unite the dates. But if we be negative about it then we surpress the Spirit and unity will take a lot longer than we even think and not to the worlds favor which is already in huge turmoil ( both physically and spiritually ) as it is.

''And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [25] And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.'' ( Mark 3:24 )

As we can see division doesnt come from God. At the moment our Christianity suffers because of our division. It's our greatest sin. So the invite is there to sign something as simple as a petition and pray for unity of the dates.

http://www.onedate.org/

God bless
Stephen

Interesting note: The first time Orthodox Easter will fall on July 4 is in the year A.D. 9526.

Well, they are losing roughly 11 minutes per year.

Personally I'd rather trust a self-styled expert with some scientific training over a bishop when it comes to time-keeping.

A possible interpretation is that, knowing the intransigent zeal of the Old Calendarists, God is giving them the time they need to face the problem.

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I know that the Easter dates has nothing to do with Dogma or theology but everything to do with time calculation yet when it came down to it in Nicea our Church fathers had the final decision, this is why our Hierarhy plays an important role. But our hierarchy are the ones with the keys to push the door of unity open. They can do more than we when it comes to at least getting the dates unified but we the laity have to be united on the belief that we need a One date for Easter.

“I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.” (1 Cor 1:10 RSV)

At risk of reiterating too much of what I already said...We are never going to get anywhere debating over councils and which calendar is right as lay people. We just need to be united in having one date for Easter and sign the petition.

There is a lot of info on the following site that covers the subject better than I do. I suggest that everyone peruses the whole site ( www.onedate.org [onedate.org] ). I'll leave it at that for now.

Slan Go Fioll agus Rath De ort