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So how about that union now? This goes along with the other problems that have been discussed on this board. So ROCOR canonizes several saints that were even placed on the MP calender,and now they are taken off. What is the reason?
Here is a list of names?
1. Hieromartyr. Trofim Myachin, elder (1938) (January 1)
2. martyr. John Lyubimov (1942) (January 8)
3. Martyr. Arseny (Dobronravova) Abbess (January 10)
4. Hieromartyr. James Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
5. Hieromartyr. Peter Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
6. Hieromartyr. John Dobrokhotov, Fr. (January 22)
7. Hieromartyr. John Korzhavin, Priest (22 January)
8. Hieromartyr. John Rozanov, Priest (22 January)
9. Hieromartyr. Nikolai Bukharin, Fr. (January 22)
10. Hieromartyr. Fr. Dmitry Smirnov (1940) (June 13)
11. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolai Vinogradov (1938) (June 14)
12. martyr. John Protopopov (1937) (July 16)
13. Hieromartyr. Priest Nikolai love of truth (1941) (July 31)
14. St.. Basil (Transfiguration), en. Kineshemsky, App. (1945) (July 31)
15. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Zelensky (1937) (September 2)
16. Martyr. Nun Xenia (Cherlin-Brailovskaya) (1937) (September 2)
17. Hieromartyr. Deacon Peter Sorokin (1953) (September 3)
18. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Intelligences (1937) (September 9)
19. martyr. Vladimir love of truth (1937) (September 21)
20. Hieromartyr. Fr. Leonid Prendkovich (1938) (September 30)
21. Hieromartyr. Iuvenaly (Maslowski), Arch. Ryazan (1937) (October 11)
22. Hieromartyr. Herman (Kokkel), en. Alatyrskij (1937) (October 20)
23. Hieromartyr. Priest Leonid Vinogradov (1941) (October 30)
24. prmch. ierod. Benjamin (Zykov) (1937) (November 19)
25. Hieromartyr. Macarius (Karmazin), en. Dnepropetrovsk (1937) (November 20)
26. Hieromartyr. Boris (Voskoboinikov), en. Ivanovo (1937) (November 23)
27. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolay Postnikov (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 26)
28. Hieromartyr. Priest Peter Raven (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 28)
29. MC. Mary Demetrius (December 2)
30. Martyr. Fevronia (Ishin), Nun (December 2)
31. St.. Vassian (Pyatnitsky), Arch. Tambov, App. (1940) (December 14)
Martyrs, which has not been set memory "under the number"
and who remember only New Martyrs
(Thanks for the info ustavschik )
32. Rodion (Fedorov), Archimandrite., App.: � 1933 (presented by the Moscow diocese, glorified by the Holy Synod of July 17, 2006, the magazine № 40)
33. John Shvetsov, Fr., Hieromartyr.: � 1918 (presented by the Perm diocese, glorified Jubilee Sacred Council)
34. Alexander Smirnov, Priest, Hieromartyr.: � 1918 | | Rostov. (Represented by the Diocese of Yaroslavl, glorified Jubilee Sacred Council)
35. Peter Kosmodamianskii, Priest, Hieromartyr.: � 1938 | | Booth. (Presented by the Moscow diocese, glorified by the Holy Synod December 26, 2001)
36. Nicholas, Fr., Hieromartyr.: � 1937.
So whats the story?
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Has this ever been done before?
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This is something I found on it. Excuse the translation. It comes from Portal Credo posted on Feb 1st.
His Eminence!
Bless!
Just returned from a Christmas Readings in Moscow, where I learned about the great sadness and dismay of the priests and laity about the recent decanonization 36 new Russian saints. This sad news cast a black veil on all the activities of these readings, and now all hope for you, the bishops of the Church Abroad and the faithful bishops of the Russian Church, to look into this matter and make martyrs decanonization conciliar wise, canon, church address the issue.
With the exception of St.. Anna of Kashin, to my knowledge, this phenomenon has not been in the Russian Church, and suddenly, without the knowledge of the Council of the Russian Church, without the Commission on the glorification of the New Martyrs, was made ​​in secret, this decanonization. How was it possible to make a case without conciliar decision of the Church? Who's next to decanonization? Can you believe some new documents from the KGB?
The people and clergy in Russia (we have it, as a rule, no one knows anything) is very angered by this act decanonization and the complete lack of intelligent, authoritative explanation. If the performance of satanic girls at Christ the Savior was an attack on the Church since the outside and is, in the words of the Patriarch, "mosquito bite", the decanonization some martyrs is, in my experience, and the earthquake disaster that comes from within the church itself.
Patriarch Kirill, seeing great indignation of those present at the council in 2009, on which he was elected, he promised that nothing in the Church is not going to change. And what do we see in 4 years of his leadership: an attempt Russification Church Slavonic, friendly attitude to Catholics, rapprochement with the government commitment to the business, and now - decanonization some martyrs.
Believers in Russia, more and more often I say, as they find it difficult to go to a church.
I do not know how we will survive this latest attack on the Church when our members know about it? But we owe them to say so!
I always had to hear from the faithful and clergy in Russia, which they hope for the Church Abroad and its persistence in matters of faith, for the feel to guide MP goes. Humbly ask - stand on strazhe COMPLIANCE sacred traditions of the Russian Church.
Russian people in Russia and abroad, looking at you with hope!
Ask your holy prayers!
God help you!
Archpriest Vladimir Malchenko,
Toronto.
January 31, 2013
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chadrook,
May we have some links please as to your sources. Thanks.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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This should not be viewed as unexpected since it was announced back in 2007 that ROC and ROCOR were going to be working on a common martyrology and it was said by ROC that ROCOR had made errors in its canonization of new martyrs. 21 June 2007, 14:52
The Moscow Patriarchate and the ROCOR to start composing common martyr list next month
Moscow, June 21, Interfax - The Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia plan to start composing a common list of new saints, martyred by the Bolsheviks, in July 2007.
'The ROCOR has canonized many new martyrs without clear evidence that they were really martyred for their faith, such as interrogation or execution protocols. That could result in some mistakes,' the St. Petersburg Central State Archive official Mikhail Shkarovsky told the participants of the conference on Christianity, Culture and Moral Values in Moscow on Thursday.
According to him, the number of Soviet citizens martyred for their faith is still uncertain. We know, for instance, that out of 300,000 Orthodox clergymen 200,000 were murdered. At the moment, the Moscow Patriarchate has canonized near 1,500 new martyrs.
However, the canonization process involves some problems, Shkarovsky said. In particular, only few new saints martyred during the first two years of the Bolshevik rule have been canonized due to lack of documents. Members of the so-called 'rightwing opposition' or 'Sergianist movement' also have problems with canonization since the church people remain divided over the issue.
Finally, another problem with the canonization is that places of mass execution and burial of the new martyrs are still unknown. Source: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3223 29 August 2007, 16:53
Moscow Patriarchate and Russian Church Outside Russia can compile single list of new martyrs already within a year - Canonization Commission
St. Petersburg, August 29, Interfax - A single list of new martyrs can be compiled by the Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Church Outside Russia as now its part within a year, Archpriest Georgy Mitrofanov, a member of the Synodal Canonization Commission, has stated.
�During its summer session in July, the Moscow Patriarchate Commission for Canonization set up a working group, which is to work together with the ROCOR working group for canonization to compile a single calendar list of saints including new martyrs�, Father Georgy told Interfax on Wednesday.
�I believe the two working groups working together will be able to compile within a year a common list of new martyrs, that is, people who suffered for their faith at the hands of the Bolsheviks�, he added.
The work for drafting a common martyrologue will most probably start this autumn, the priest believes.
It is needed, he explained, because in its time the Russian Church Outside Russia canonized new martyrs altogether, including them in the list of saints all at once because it had no opportunity to look into the fate of each separately. In addition, the ROCOR had no access to the archives which documented the behavior of a particular person during interrogations.
�The canonization in the Church Outside Russia was accomplished in this way: first the Assembly of the Saints was glorified with some names given and an icon was composed, depicting also those who were not named specifically, and only after that a list of names was compiled. We did it differently, as each canonization was accomplished individually. We worked slowly, carefully and thoroughly studied the archives�, Father Georgy explained.
Because of this �reversed� order of canonization in the Church Outside Russia some oddities happened, the priest related. For instance, canonized together with the royal family were some of their servants of non-Orthodox faith.
�If in compiling a single list, some disputable points arise, the name under question will not be included in our list. But no formal procedure of de-canonization will be pursued�, Father Georgy said.
The most outstanding person in the ROCOR list of new martyrs, who have not been canonized by the Moscow Patriarchate, is Archbishop Ioann Maksimovich of Shanghai, who was the spiritual leader of the Russian emigres in China after the 1917 Revolution. �He will not need a new canonization; he will be just included in the common list�, Father Georgy Mitrofanov said. Source: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3555Here are excerpts from the Report of the Holy Synod Commission on the Canonization of Saints With Respect to the Martyrdom of the Imperial Family that was issued in 1996. ...And what could be said of the unprecedented historical analogy, from the Orthodox point of view, of the decision of the Synod Abroad to include among those canonized with the Royal Family, the martyred czar's servant the Roman Catholic Alois Yegorovich Trupp and court-tutor the Lutheran Yekaterina Adol'fovna Schneider.
...The Commission came to the conclusion that a very appropriate way of honoring the Christian feats of the Royal Family's loyal servants who shared in their tragic fate, would be to immortalize this feat in the written lives of the Royal martyrs. Thus, at the present time the violent death suffered by these laymen as a result of their carrying out of their moral duty to the Royal Family cannot be presumed to be a martyr's death for confessing the Christian faith. So, I am assuming now that the servants killed along with Romanov Imperial Family and the Grand Dukes killed alongside Saint Elizabeth Feodorovna and the Nun Saint Barbara have also been de-canonized. I too would like to see some links to these sources.
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This is something I found on it. Excuse the translation. It comes from Portal Credo posted on Feb 1st.
His Eminence!
Bless!
Just returned from a Christmas Readings in Moscow, where I learned about the great sadness and dismay of the priests and laity about the recent decanonization 36 new Russian saints. This sad news cast a black veil on all the activities of these readings, and now all hope for you, the bishops of the Church Abroad and the faithful bishops of the Russian Church, to look into this matter and make martyrs decanonization conciliar wise, canon, church address the issue.
With the exception of St.. Anna of Kashin, to my knowledge, this phenomenon has not been in the Russian Church, and suddenly, without the knowledge of the Council of the Russian Church, without the Commission on the glorification of the New Martyrs, was made ​​in secret, this decanonization. How was it possible to make a case without conciliar decision of the Church? Who's next to decanonization? Can you believe some new documents from the KGB?
The people and clergy in Russia (we have it, as a rule, no one knows anything) is very angered by this act decanonization and the complete lack of intelligent, authoritative explanation. If the performance of satanic girls at Christ the Savior was an attack on the Church since the outside and is, in the words of the Patriarch, "mosquito bite", the decanonization some martyrs is, in my experience, and the earthquake disaster that comes from within the church itself.
Patriarch Kirill, seeing great indignation of those present at the council in 2009, on which he was elected, he promised that nothing in the Church is not going to change. And what do we see in 4 years of his leadership: an attempt Russification Church Slavonic, friendly attitude to Catholics, rapprochement with the government commitment to the business, and now - decanonization some martyrs.
Believers in Russia, more and more often I say, as they find it difficult to go to a church.
I do not know how we will survive this latest attack on the Church when our members know about it? But we owe them to say so!
I always had to hear from the faithful and clergy in Russia, which they hope for the Church Abroad and its persistence in matters of faith, for the feel to guide MP goes. Humbly ask - stand on strazhe COMPLIANCE sacred traditions of the Russian Church.
Russian people in Russia and abroad, looking at you with hope!
Ask your holy prayers!
God help you!
Archpriest Vladimir Malchenko,
Toronto.
January 31, 2013 Whoever was wondering why I stay away from ROCOR - this is why.
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This is something I found on it. Excuse the translation. It comes from Portal Credo posted on Feb 1st.
His Eminence!
Bless!
Just returned from a Christmas Readings in Moscow, where I learned about the great sadness and dismay of the priests and laity about the recent decanonization 36 new Russian saints. This sad news cast a black veil on all the activities of these readings, and now all hope for you, the bishops of the Church Abroad and the faithful bishops of the Russian Church, to look into this matter and make martyrs decanonization conciliar wise, canon, church address the issue.
With the exception of St.. Anna of Kashin, to my knowledge, this phenomenon has not been in the Russian Church, and suddenly, without the knowledge of the Council of the Russian Church, without the Commission on the glorification of the New Martyrs, was made ​​in secret, this decanonization. How was it possible to make a case without conciliar decision of the Church? Who's next to decanonization? Can you believe some new documents from the KGB?
The people and clergy in Russia (we have it, as a rule, no one knows anything) is very angered by this act decanonization and the complete lack of intelligent, authoritative explanation. If the performance of satanic girls at Christ the Savior was an attack on the Church since the outside and is, in the words of the Patriarch, "mosquito bite", the decanonization some martyrs is, in my experience, and the earthquake disaster that comes from within the church itself.
Patriarch Kirill, seeing great indignation of those present at the council in 2009, on which he was elected, he promised that nothing in the Church is not going to change. And what do we see in 4 years of his leadership: an attempt Russification Church Slavonic, friendly attitude to Catholics, rapprochement with the government commitment to the business, and now - decanonization some martyrs.
Believers in Russia, more and more often I say, as they find it difficult to go to a church.
I do not know how we will survive this latest attack on the Church when our members know about it? But we owe them to say so!
I always had to hear from the faithful and clergy in Russia, which they hope for the Church Abroad and its persistence in matters of faith, for the feel to guide MP goes. Humbly ask - stand on strazhe COMPLIANCE sacred traditions of the Russian Church.
Russian people in Russia and abroad, looking at you with hope!
Ask your holy prayers!
God help you!
Archpriest Vladimir Malchenko,
Toronto.
January 31, 2013 Whoever was wondering why I stay away from ROCOR - this is why. And this is why I always said that a rush into union was a bad idea. ROCOR should have stayed ROCA.
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Why so rough? Instead, the ROCOR went on to splitting - these accept the union, these don't. Let the fun continue.
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Why so rough? Instead, the ROCOR went on to splitting - these accept the union, these don't. Let the fun continue. Trust me, I understand. I know the following is opinion to most but it is not to me. I remember the ROCA before 2000. Then the changes started to come, positions of some of the most ardent supporters of ROCA had a change of heart. From what seemed to be one day it all shifted. After 2000 is when I started to see more of the ROCOR. and a reinterpretation of how things happened in the past. Even a retelling of history. At the clergy/laity conference in Chicago, the conditions for union were voted on right as people were getting the document. It was a done deal in the back rooms in Europe and New York. You ask why no resistance? Oh but there was, and lots of it. But in the end we either left or were tied to synod with no place to go. Abp. Alipy's eyes said it all at the vote, it is over. I could go on but the point of the thread was to discuss why and how saints could be decanonized. Not reasons and conditions for union.
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the point of the thread was to discuss why and how saints could be decanonized. ...It's the Lord's decision ultimately, isn't it? The point of this fuss (not your post but the hysterical tone of the appeal you quoted) is beyond me while the Church is facing very real challenges. Instead, we are using issues like this to spread antagonism while our churches are getting emptier by the day and the devil is laughing at us. Anyway, I pray that all of the Lord's saints and righteous above, whether named on our earthly lists or not, especially all the courageous martyrs, forgive this shameful circus and hear our humble prayers. Especially Fr. Alexander Hotovitsky who established all these churches here in the States and then went back home to Russia to accept a martyr's death. Good night.
Last edited by Mariya Diawara; 02/04/13 06:21 AM.
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Personally, I know that one of the conditions of the union was recognition of the late Czar Nicholas II and his family as martyrs. I have a problem with this canonization but because they're "official" now, I have to sing their troparions and prayers on the feast day. And I do, I have no choice, it's not my place to complain.
And please Irish Melkite I do not want any long posts from you addressed to me on the subject, I've had the conversation with Fr. Stephen already.
Last edited by Mariya Diawara; 02/04/13 06:53 AM.
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Mariya,
Thank you for your candor. As you know we a diametrically opposed on this subject. But it is wonderful to find someone sticking to their guns.
I know that you don't see it this way, but the condition for union as explained to the laity was that all of the new martyrs were to be excepted. And they were not. Starting with Metropolitan Iosif of Petrograd in 2000 and now this.
I will say that your post take me back to the pre-union days. When, as a member of ROCA, everyone spoke of us as schismatics with questionable apostolic succession. Or ultra traditionalist zealots. I rather miss those days.
So, would you say that there is still tension between the MP and ROCOR? I am really asking this; would you say as a member of the MP that there is a general feeling that the union was not handled in the best way? I hear enough from members of ROCOR and people not even in the Russian Church, but not much from MP laity.
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To be truthful, I've never heard the topic mentioned in my church.
Last edited by Mariya Diawara; 02/07/13 07:22 PM.
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