www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Lamb

Ilya,

I've thought a return to the traditional practice would be a good idea. (BTW, as funny as your avatar image is it discourages people from reading this thread since it may take awhile for their system to load it.)

What is the view of some of the priest participants in the Forum? They actually are the ones most affected. Reverend Fathers, what are your views?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

"Note that in modern Greek practice everything from the diskos is put into the chalice before the distribution of Communion. Dave "

This was the original Russian practice and is preserved in the Old Rite.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

And once again the "Current Russian practice must be correct" presumption is shown to be false and the Old Rite and Ruthenian Recension come out on top once again. :p

Amin! Lance.

Lance,

Perhaps you can ask them why at BC seminary they don't follow that custom then. Let me know what the answer is please.

Tony

Fr Mark,

Is Communion given from the commemorative particles? Or did the Old Rite even have these?

Tony

Dear Tony, as you have pointed out-

"One thought on how to distinguish in the chalice could be this. Commemorative particles are generally triangular and small. The Lamb is cut into cubes...the shape would be obvious if the size is not. Again, presuming a firm bread that holds its shape in liquid."

- it is very easy to determine the Lamb from the commemorative particles.

Communion is only from the Lamb.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner

Fr Mark,

Then in the fact the most BCs use pre-cut particles for everything (all same size and shape) and the fraction is reduced as must be and Communion is given from any particle that goes into the chalice, this does not mimic Old Rite practice?

Tony

... certainly does not.

Fr Mark.

Tony,

You ask them, I'm not getting in trouble. Maybe they are crypto-Russophiles? :p Please understand I find either practice acceptable, I am just put off by those who try and make a dogmatic arguement out of things like this. If Ilya's parish follows the Russian practice fine, if others follow the Ruthenian/Old Rite practice that is fine too. The arguement about consecration is silly becasue intention has to play a part in this somewhere. If priests don't intend to consecrate the commeration particles then obviously they are not and the Russian practice makes sense. Obviously Byzantine Catholic priests intend to consecrate every particle on the discos, so our practice makes sense. I would even go further and state that if a priest doesn't intend to consecrate the commeration particles but puts them in the chalice they could still be used for communion (if needed) because they are sanctified by saturation with the Holy Blood. This would be the reverse of Presanctified where the wine is considered sanctified by the Holy Body.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

Fr Mark,

Another question. In the Old Rite is more than one chalice consecrated at once?

Tony

As to intention, it is necessary but insufficient to ask what the intention of the individual priest is. We must also ask what intention is implied by the texts and rubrics, and what the intention of the Church is. Incognitus

Lance,

Who is trying to "make a dogmatic arguement out of things like this"?

And I suppose for you intention has to play a role but not for others (you can guess for whom).

Tony

Tony,

I thought Ilya was:
"I was always tought (and I understand it is common orthodox theology) that ONLY THE LAMB IS CONSECRATED. If what i was tought is true, than there needs to be some serious work done amongst priests and bishops."

The implication being that our people are being served unconsecrated particles as Communion which I believe to be nonsense.

As for your second commnet, I am not sure I understand. Are you saying intention has no bearing in Orthodox sacramental theology? I don't intend intention in a strict Thomistic sense, but in a simple common sense approach.

For example a Latin Catholic I know was perplexed that a flagon of wine from the preparation was left on the altar through the consecrationand was later put away in the fridge. He feared disrespect to the Holy Blood. I said not so. The priest, while he should have had the flagon taken back to the credence table, did not intend to consecrate the flagon, as was made obvious by his putting it in the fridge and not consuming it. I know the priest and he is quite reverant and orthodox.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

PS. One of these days I am going to make it up to St. Vlads.

It does appear both views are valid. The GOA site does seem to indicate that (some?) Greeks are adopting the Russian practice.

Pre-cut particles for all of this does seem a stretch from any tradition, doesn't it?

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com