|
0 members (),
374
guests, and
59
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,400
Posts416,778
Members6,000
| |
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391 Likes: 31
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391 Likes: 31 |
By the way much of Eastern Orthodoxy treats Western Riters, why would they even want to connect with it?
I now know 11 individuals, former Western Rite Orthodox, who are, in their own words, "coming home to Rome."
Rome and room enough.
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391 Likes: 31
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391 Likes: 31 |
I was just kidding, Petros!
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,729 Likes: 23
John Member
|
|
John Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,729 Likes: 23 |
Can you please explain why you believe this? I often attend Vigil at a ROCOR parish and it is prayerful and the people friendly and welcoming. My experience tells me that you are mistaken. Best wishes!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421 |
I believe that quote was in response to research that St. John had done on the Liturgy of St Gregory - a Western Rite liturgy in use in an Orthodox Church in France.
I don't think that is out of context - it is a very specific quote regarding the use of a Western Liturgy in Orthodoxy.
As for implementing the Liturgy within his diocese - I'm not sure what was attempted or promoted if anything.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391 Likes: 31
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391 Likes: 31 |
Dear Mythwin,
Apart from the fact that, unlike the Administrator, whenever I enter a ROCOR parish I'm set upon to get me to convert (perhaps they really see something of value in me they would like to have all to themselves?), ROCOR is an EXAMPLE of Orthodox piety and tradition which my own former parish priest would compare my UGCC parish to by way of an "Eastern Standard."
My church's iconography was written by ROCOR iconographers. I really think you should go and visit with them before passing judgement.
Your ROCOR MYTH won't WIN, otherwise.
Hopefully, my last statement above won't disturb your dream-life tonight . . .
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2 |
I work with Western Rite ROCOR . pleas tell that to the Family's of Two priest that committed suicide when they wear kick out. I personally know some of the Bishops in ROCOR and what they teach is not all orthodox tradition but man made laws they do not recognize anyone else's apostolic succession even know they been found valid by the roman catholic church I know from priest the transferred over. They're very arrogant and the act like the Pharisees. Please don't tell me that I don't know them when I do. I've seen what they did the Bishop Jerome
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 357
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 357 |
I work with Western Rite ROCOR . pleas tell that to the Family's of Two priest that committed suicide when they wear kick out. I personally know some of the Bishops in ROCOR and what they teach is not all orthodox tradition but man made laws they do not recognize anyone else's apostolic succession even know they been found valid by the roman catholic church I know from priest the transferred over. They're very arrogant and the act like the Pharisees. Please don't tell me that I don't know them when I do. I've seen what they did the Bishop Jerome That's rather big news. Can you provide any more information on the two priest?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2 |
Yeah, it would amount to what? A quarter or so of all its priests?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,665 Likes: 7
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,665 Likes: 7 |
There is still part of me that wishes that one Eastern jurisdiction would create a WR based on the Lutheran liturgy. The only WR at present are adapted from the Tridentine Mass or from Rite One of the Book of Common Prayer.
There are many Lutherans who are seeking a solid ecclesial community grounded in the Great Tradition: the ecumenical Creeds,the first four (possibly seven) ecumenical councils, and the historic liturgy.
Many found themselves in crisis when the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America decided to Ordain as Presbyters non-chaste homosexuals in "publicly accountable, monogamus relationships" and to teach that there are a plurality of definitions of "marriage".
That no Eastern jurisdiction has undertaken to embrace a "Lutheran WR" stikes me as squandered opportunity. Pastor Thomas, would you happen to know: are the "Ukrainian Lutherans" in communion with the historic Scandinavian Lutherans - the group with Bishops, ad orientem worship etc?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 80
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 80 |
For all those people who left the ROCOR WR vicariate, I want you to know what you're in for when you join the Anglican use Ordinariate of St. Peter. Yes it is not only altar girls, but you will have your priest "face the people", you'll have your own "Eudora Campese Memorial Columbarium" and much, much more. It is a package deal. The Book of the Divine Worship liturgy is truly the "Mass of Paul the VI" at heart, with a little extra elizabethan language. The influence of the new order mass is all encompassing, all pervasive and seemingly inescapeable. Christ the King Anglican Use Catholic Church Towson, MD August 4, 2013 [ Linked Image] The two of these churches have in common that pervasive influence. Melkite Greek Catholic Catedral San Jorge, Caracas - Venezuela, 2010 [ Linked Image] [ Linked Image] Neocatechumenal Way Rite Mass. [ Linked Image] "To reverse the maxim "legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, ("let the rule of prayer establish the rule of belief"), subordinating the standard of worship to the standard of belief, makes a shambles of the dialectic of revelation. It was a Presence, not faith, which drew Moses to the burning bush, and what happened there was a revelation, not a seminar. It was a Presence, not faith, which drew the disciples to Jesus, and what happened there was not an educational program but His revelation to them of Himself as the long-promised Anointed One, the redeeming because reconciling Messiah-Christos".41 Indeed the radical impulse to destroy the entire liturgical tradition and go back to Eucharists in the manner of the Last Supper is the inevitable consequence of applying the criteria of theological analysis to the sacred liturgy which, as a slowly growing humanly-ordered thing, cannot possibly have "come from the Lord complete and perfect" as Bossuet the elder said of the deposit of faith.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396 |
First, this whole piece is not only inflammatory but clearly designed to be misleading and displays a level of ignorance that is palpable. Personally, I can't care less about what the people in ROCOR WR do but hopefully they will base their decisions on facts and not nonsense like this.
The first picture is of an Ordinate congregation using what is a regular Roman Catholic church and, of course, the priest and the altar face the people which is the norm in such a church. I have attended Our Lady of Atonement parish in San Antonio many times and the altar faces the wall as is traditional in Anglican parishes.
Second, since my wife is a former Episcopalian I am quite familiar with the pre 1976 Book of Common Prayer. The Anglican Use liturgy is virtually identical except where short additions have been made to facilitate Roman Catholic elements of the Mass that are not in the BOCP.
The second picture is of an Eastern Catholic church in Venezuela that has been the source of extensive discussion on this site. It is generally agreed that these people have gone overboard but of course they are one church and have nothing to do with the Ordinate. Roman certainly did not force this hybridization on them.
I have no idea what the two ladies with guitars have to do with anything but I can certainly confirm for you that a lot of RC churches have people that play guitars. Of course, under the ROCOR reforms of the Western Rite those high church organs will go by the way side anyway. I have never seen a guitar at Our Lady of Atonement but they do have a Bach Choir I think.
As for the last picture, anyone who thinks the Neocatechuminate
Movement is representative of anything but a fringe group in the Roman Catholic church is just silly. Clearly this is the invocation of an extreme image from an extreme group to incite the reader.
I really have no dog in this fight but I am frustrated by such obviously nonsensical polemic.
For full disclosure, I should note that Our Lady of Atonement parish, which is the first Anglican Use parish in the U.S. has not yet chosen to join the Ordinate. They are apparently are perfectly happy at the moment to be a parish of the Archdiocese of San Antonio and seem to be withstanding the pressures of Romanization quite well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 2 |
The first picture is of an Ordinate congregation using what is a regular Roman Catholic church and, of course, the priest and the altar face the people which is the norm in such a church. The table is free standing and has four sides. The celebrant can stand at one just as easily as the other. I have attended Our Lady of Atonement parish in San Antonio many times and the altar faces the wall as is traditional in Anglican parishes. Where the altar is not free-standing, one has no choice. Second, since my wife is a former Episcopalian I am quite familiar with the pre 1976 Book of Common Prayer. The Anglican Use liturgy is virtually identical except where short additions have been made to facilitate Roman Catholic elements of the Mass that are not in the BOCP. The real hard core would ask, "Why not 1928?" The second picture is of an Eastern Catholic church in Venezuela that has been the source of extensive discussion on this site. It is generally agreed that these people have gone overboard but of course they are one church and have nothing to do with the Ordinate. Roman certainly did not force this hybridization on them. I'm pretty sure if the Synod had the resources, it would do what it could to suppress these abuses. As it is, the situation closer to home dominates their concerns. As for the last picture, anyone who thinks the Neocatechuminate
Movement is representative of anything but a fringe group in the Roman Catholic church is just silly. Clearly this is the invocation of an extreme image from an extreme group to incite the reader. Agreed. I also wonder why the movement has not been suppressed. For full disclosure, I should note that Our Lady of Atonement parish, which is the first Anglican Use parish in the U.S. has not yet chosen to join the Ordinate. They are apparently are perfectly happy at the moment to be a parish of the Archdiocese of San Antonio and seem to be withstanding the pressures of Romanization quite well. Quite good to hear. Had more bishops been more accommodating, an Ordinariate wold not have been necessary.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391 Likes: 31
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,391 Likes: 31 |
Dear Mythwin,
I sincerely apologise to you!
Should keep my big mouth shut.
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953 |
Interesting question, as in the Slovak regions of the Rusyns, there were, and are, Slovak Lutheran communities. Were there any in Transcarpathia prior to World War 2? If so, are they still there today? Just wondering, as they, like us are sort of being assimilated in the States, but wherever we lived, there was one of their small Churches in the neighborhood.
|
|
|
|
|
