www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Can someone belong 2 BOTH: Roman Catholic Tradition & Orthodoxy?

Yes indeed - there are MANY similarities and I feel those who bash them in ignorance are harming the churches from within while their respective heads try to work on reuniting. . .

Best

I get it... - you mean because of the word 'Roman' in there... right?

Best

Christine:

There are several Latin Catholic variations, the largest being the Roman. You might find some of them online if you do a google search. Though small, they are legitimate variations found in Europe.

The Eastern Catholic Churches fall into the divisions that came about in the Eastern world as a result of the Concil of Chalcedon (the 4th Ecumenical Council). They mirror the Byzantine Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox families of Churches.

Bob

The Ambrosian Rite and the Mozarabic Rite are not well known, as they are each used by a very small percentage of Catholics. They do exist however -- within the Latin Church, alongside the Roman Rite. That's why it isn't technically correct to refer to the Roman Rite as the Latin Rite (although it is very common).

I don't want to presume to know their reasoning, of course, but perhaps they are concerned about people who might see "Byzantine Catholic" and not realize that means in communion with Rome.

But on the other hand, as it is their sign could confuse people since "Roman Catholic" is used as a shortened form of "Roman-Rite Catholic".

Here is the breakdown of the types of Catholic religious traditions and the Orthodox [I listed all those I could find]:

UNDER THE PAPACY of ROME are the following Catholics:
Latin Rite;
Liturgical rites
a. Latin (Western) - Actively celebrated:
• Roman Rite [Roman Catholic of the Latin Rite], whose historical forms are usually classified as follows:

• Pre-Tridentine Mass (the various pre-1570 forms);
• Tridentine Mass (groups celebrate various forms of this, the 1962 one being authorized in circumstances indicated in the document Summorum Pontificum)
• Mass of Paul VI (1970–present)

Under the authority of the Papacy of the Vatican and belonging to the 'Church of Rome' are ALSO:
b. Anglican Use (restricted to formerly Anglican congregations)
c. Ambrosian Rite (Milan, Italy and neighbouring areas) [So this is NOT the same as the religious tradition I practice and I was correct in stating this before];
d. Rite of Braga (Braga, Portugal)
e. Mozarabic Rite (Toledo and Salamanca, Spain) [So, again, this is NOT the same as the religious tradition I practice and I was correct in stating this before]
Defunct or rarely 'celebrated' as a 'rite' and are now part of the 'Latin' rite:
• Aquileian Rite (defunct: northeastern Italy)
• Durham Rite (defunct: Durham, England)
• Gallican Rite (defunct: Gaul, i.e., France)
• Celtic Rite (defunct: British Isles)
• Sarum Rite (defunct: England)
Catholic Order Rites (Liturgical Rites - Now part of the main Latin Rite):
• Benedictine Rite
• Carmelite Rite
• Carthusian Rite
• Cistercian Rite
• Dominican Rite
• Franciscan Rite
• Friars Minor Capuchin Rite
• Premonstratensian Rite
• Servite Rite
• Eastern Catholics [In full communion with Rome, but retaining a diverse array of Eastern liturgical rites]
a. Alexandrian;
• Coptic Catholic Church
• Ethiopic Catholic Church
b. Antiochian;
• Maronite Church
• Syrian Catholic Church (West)
c. Armenian Catholic Church;
d. Byzantine Rite (Constantinopolitan) [So, this IS the Roman Catholic of the Byzantine Rite...];
• Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
• Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
• Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
• Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro
• Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
• Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
• Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
• Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
• Melkite Greek Catholic Church
• Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
• Russian Byzantine Catholic Church
• Ruthenian Catholic Church
• Slovak Greek Catholic Church
• Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
• Ukrainian Catholics of the Byzantine Rite [Need to classify this one better here... it likely 'belongs' elsewhere...]
e. Chaldean or East Syrian Catholics
• Chaldean Catholic Church
• Syro-Malabar Church


2. Eastern Christianity
• Eastern Orthodoxy (the churches are in full communion, i.e. the national churches are united in theological concept and part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Eastern Orthodox Church)
a. Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople
b. Russian Orthodox Church
c. Serbian Orthodox Church
d. Romanian Orthodox Church
e. Church of Greece
f. Bulgarian Orthodox Church
g. Georgian Orthodox Church [Georgian Apostolic Autocephalous Orthodox Church]
h. Greek Orthodox Church
i. Cypriot Orthodox Church
j. Albanian Orthodox Church
k. Polish Orthodox Church
l. Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia
m. Turkish Orthodox Church (unrecognized by other Orthodox churches/schismatic)
n. Macedonian Orthodox Church – Ohrid Archbishopric (unrecognized by other Orthodox churches/schismatic)
o. Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate (unrecognized by other Orthodox churches/schismatic)
p. Montenegrin Orthodox Church (unrecognized by other Orthodox churches/schismatic); and,
q. Several other autocephalous churches and Patriarchates
• Russian Orthodox Old Believers
• Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists
• Oriental Orthodox
a. Armenian Orthodox;
b. Coptic Orthodox (Egyptian);
c. Ethiopian Orthodox;
d. Syriac Orthodox; as well as,
e. A portion of the St. Thomas Christians

I hope this helps... So, one cannot 'bunch' religious traditions together. . . Despite that the Ambrosian and the Mozarabic belong to the Catholic Church of Rome under the Papacy, they are not quite the same as the Roman Catholic of the Latin Rite as their religious tradition is practiced differently.

I hope this helps to clarify my point of view. . .

Thank you for your efforts... it forced me to search deeper into things. . .

Best,

Christine

Got ya... I think basically at the end of the day we are stating the same thing but in different ways. . .

For many, Roman Catholic is the same as 'Roman Catholic of the Latin Rite'... However, when you look at the breakdown of the different 'traditions' WITHIN the Roman Catholic Church, I can see where you are coming from... with 'Roman-Rite Catholic'...

I have always taken my religious tradition (and so has my church) as being 'Roman Catholic of the Latin Rite' - so, I guess I could see today I am a 'Roman-Rite Catholic' - the two are the same in essence. . . We use 'RC' [For Roman Catholic] instead of 'RRC' [For Roman-Rite Catholic] however... - you rarely see RRC used by our church ...practically never these days. . .

Best,

Christine

True, I hardly ever use "Roman-Rite Catholic" (RRC) or see it used by others. Personally I usually speak of "Latin Catholics" (LCs) which includes RRCs as well as Bragan-Rite Catholics, etc etc.

Well, I wasn't going to go into so much detail but there's no question that the Latin Church has quite a few rites (even without counting the defunct ones).

Of course, the Roman Rite is used more than all the other Western rites put together.

Your ignorance of a fact does not make it untrue. The Code of Canon Law refers to the western Church by one name: Latin Church. The Latin Church is unique in that it is multi-ritual.

I only wish we could have seen it pre-Trent.

In fact it is the first canon in the Code of Canon Law [vatican.va]:

Today the world is changing and I hope soon I shall no longer be torn by this. . . While I am Roman Catholic, I have always wanted to belong to BOTH religious traditions. . .

I posted this already in the thread under the photo of the Hagia Sofia (Agia Sofia) but am now adding it here as it is relevant to our discussion. . .

Below (at the bottom here) I copied an article which has appeared today, November 29, 2014 in Yahoo News... - I could no longer find the link so I copied the text here for you... If someone can find the link, it would be so nice as my intent here is not to violate any copyright... - yet, I do not know how long this post will be up on the Internet. . . The most important part is at the very bottom where Pope Francis I and Patriarch Bartholomew I, leader of the Orthodox Church in Istanbul, 'participated in an ecumenical liturgy and signed a joint declaration in the ongoing attempt to reunite the churches.' I pray this day of re-unification shall come when the major branches of Christianity unite! I pray Our Lord to grant that I see this in my own lifetime!

The article:

Title:
Pope prays in Turkey mosque in new gesture of Muslim outreach
By Nicole Winfield And Suzan Fraser, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press
Date: November 29, 2014

Getty Images/Getty Images - ISTANBUL, TURKEY - NOVEMBER 29: Pope Francis shakes hands with Mufti of Istanbul, Rahmi Yaran (R) as he leaves the Sultan Ahmet mosque, popularly known as the Blue Mosque, on November …more
ISTANBUL - His head bowed and hands clasped in front of him, Pope Francis stood Saturday for two minutes of silent prayer facing east inside one of Istanbul's most important mosques, as he shifted gears toward more religious affairs on the second leg of his three-day visit to mainly Muslim Turkey.

Following in the footsteps of Pope Benedict XVI who visited Turkey in 2006, Francis prayed alongside the Grand Mufti of Istanbul, Rahmi Yaran, who had his palms turned toward the sky in a Muslim prayer, inside the 17th-century Sultan Ahmet mosque.

"May God accept it," Yaran told the pope at the conclusion of a poignant moment of Christian-Muslim understanding.

The Vatican spokesman, Rev. Federico Lombardi called it a moment of "silent adoration." Lombardi, who was standing behind the pope, said Francis told the mufti two times that we must "adore" God and not just praise and glorify him.

It was a remarkably different atmosphere from Francis' first day in Turkey, when the simple and frugal pope was visibly uncomfortable with the pomp and protocol required of him for the state visit part of his trip. With President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's mega-palace, honour guard and horseback escort now behind him, Francis got down to the business of being pope, showing respect to Muslim leaders, greeting Istanbul's tiny Catholic community and later meeting with the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians.

Francis nodded, smiled and looked up in awe as Yaran gave him a tour of the Blue Mosque, famed for its elaborate blue tiles and cascading domes. Francis listened intently through an interpreter as Yaran explained verses of the Muslim holy book.

Presenting the pope with a blue, tulip-designed tile, Yaran said he prayed to God that his visit would "contribute to the world getting along well and living in peace."

"We are in need of prayers. The world really needs prayers," Yaran said.

Benedict had visited Turkey amid heightened Christian-Muslim tensions and prayed at the mosque in a gesture of respect for Islam that was appreciated by many Turks. The Vatican added the stop at the Blue Mosque at the last minute to show Benedict's respect for Muslims.

The Vatican also acted to avoid offence to its Muslim hosts by moving up Francis' visit to the mosque so it wouldn't coincide with noon prayers.

After he left, Francis walked a short distance — greeting crowds for the first time in his visit — to tour the nearby Haghia Sofia, which was the main Byzantine church in Constantinople — present-day Istanbul — before being turned into a mosque following the Muslim conquest of the city in 1453. The Haghia Sophia is now a museum, although some Islamic groups want it to be converted back into a mosque.

Pope Paul VI, who made the first-ever papal visit to Turkey in 1967, fell to his knees in prayer inside Haghia Sophia, triggering protests by Turks who claimed Paul had violated the secular nature of the domed complex. Francis avoided any religious actions inside.

Halfway through his tour, the Muslim call for prayer echoed off the Haghia Sophia's marble walls, an evocative moment that symbolized the crossroads of East and West that Istanbul represents.

Museum director Hayrullah Cengiz pointed to a niche with a Byzantine fresco of the Virgin Mary holding an infant Jesus, saying it was his favourite corner because the area also features Arabic writings of the names of the Prophet Mohammed and Allah.

"They are all together," Cengiz said.

A few dozen well-wishers outside Haghia Sophia waved a combination of the Turkish and the flag of the Holy See. One carried a banner that read: "You are Peter."

Francis nearly tripped over while walking the carpet from his plane to a VIP terminal at Istanbul's Ataturk Airport. The governor of Istanbul and Patriarch Bartholomew I, the spiritual leader of Orthodox Christians, helped the pontiff as he tottered.

Later on Saturday, Francis will meet with Bartholomew — the real reason for his visit to Turkey.

The two major branches of Christianity represented by Bartholomew and Francis split in 1054 over differences on the power of the papacy. The two spiritual heads will participate in an ecumenical liturgy and sign a joint declaration in the ongoing attempt to reunite the churches.

Suzan Fraser reported from Ankara, Turkey.
(An earlier version had misspelt the name of the Grand Mufti)

______

Best to all!

Christ is in our midst!!

I believe that anything written by the Associated Press should be taken with a grain of salt. Secular news outlets are notorously ignorant of things religious and especially Christian. I think the simple explanation of the cause of the Great Schism mentioned toward the end of the article shold be a give-away.

There is a thread on this Board where Father Robert Taft is asked about what we can expect from the ecumenical work and he calls the future relationship "communion," saying that the idea of "unity" is soemthing that did not even occur in the first millenium. You might find his comments a good start in understanding the reality of where this is all going.

Bob