www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology St. Therese of Lisieux and the Eastern Catholic Churches

Dear Serge and Axios,

There is at least one Russian Orthodox parish in France that has an icon of St Therese and publicly venerates her.

The OCA Monastery of New Skete, a former Byzantine Catholic Franciscan group, does continue to print icons of St Francis of Assisi and St Clare. I understand that they also commemorate them in their liturgy and do so with the full knowledge of the OCA episcopate. I don't know what to make of that in light of the Orthodox theology of saints.

Also, there is one Antiochian Orthodox parish I know of that has an icon of the Anglican St. Charles, King and Martyr.

Alex

Thanks for the French and Antiochian info and the reminder about New Skete, Alex. I wonder if St Th�r�se and King Charles simply are private devotions placed unofficially in those churches or if they have episcopal approval. So SS. Francis and Clare have squeezed their way into official Orthodox recognition... good on them!

Were New Skete Byzantine Catholic Franciscans like Sybertsville (affiliated with the local Ruthenian eparchy) before their move to the OCA circa 1980 or were they Roman Catholic Franciscans, affiliated with the Roman ordinary in that part of New York, but using the Byzantine Rite?

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

As for your second question, I have no idea!

I thought they were Byzantine Franciscans under the Roman ordinary . . .

They have great dog training books, make great cakes and I love their liturgical publications, even though they did get rid of the first part of Matins!

King Charles is definitely a private devotion for those Episcopalians coming into the Antiochian Rite of St Tikhon.

I know Fr. Stephen Walinski of Omaha, Nebraska (he is of Ukrainian Jewish background).

He had an icon of St Charles written by an English Orthodox monk in Britain and it is popular among the St Tikhonians.

He put up a large icon of St Charles in his new parish church where one may light candles before it etc. as they do in the more than 20 Episcopal churches dedicated to him in the U.S. and in Britain, especially Walsingham. No one has told him to take the icon down!

As I said before, I've written an Eastern Akathist to St Charles the Martyr which will be published this year by the Society of King Charles the Martyr for private use.

King Charles I had, as you know, very good relations with Orthodoxy and even called himself the protector of the "Orthodox Church of England."

Whenever Archbishop William Laud gave the King a list of potential episcopal candidates, Laud would always put a "P" beside those he deemed heretical (for "Puritan") and an "O" beside the names of those he deemed "orthodox."

For the King, the "O's" always had it!

The slow inclusion of such a saint into the Orthodox or Catholic calendar, at least at the local level, would be entirely in keeping with similar instances in history that followed a separated group's re-entry into the Church.

As we know, the "monophysite" saints of Georgia are now universal in the Orthodox calendar, e.g. St David of Garesja.

The Russian France community's devotion to La Salette and St Therese (including Lourdes, as you know) was and is very strong. It was from here that Byzantine icons of Therese have come.

One Orthodox store had icons of St Francis and I asked them if the Orthodox Church recognized his sanctity (knowing what St Ignatius Brianchaninov had to say about him for one . . .).

The priest who was in the store said, "Ah, but everyone accepts St Francis!"

Alex

Alex, re: New Skete:

I thought they were Byzantine Franciscans under the Roman ordinary . . .

But where there is a Byzantine bishop, as is the case with that part of New York (it's in the Ruthenian eparchy of Passaic), that doesn't make any sense.

The Russian Catholics and other small groups are under the Roman ordinaries because they have no bishops of their own, at least in the US.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

You see, I am totally ignorant of the matter.

Please don't waste any more time talking with this ignorant person!

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Kirill, T.O.Carm!

I think I read about you, Venerable Father, in our Carmelite newsletter.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you wrote an article there explaining your path to Carmel where you said you prayed the Rosary of the Seven Joys of the Mother of God on your prayer-rope and this resulted in "changes happening" in your life.

There was also a picture with you, if it was you, wearing the Third Order Scapular and flanked by Latin Carmelites.

We know that Greek monks inhabited the caves of Carmel originally.

Could the scapular also be viewed as a symbol of the Protective Mantle of the Mother of God by Eastern Christians and so harmonize it with our spirituality?

I wear the Brown Scapular as well and understand it in this way. For me, as for you, it is a deeply meaningful symbol and sacramental.

Thank you for blessing us with your posts on this Forum, Reverend and Venerable Father of Mount Carmel!

Alex

I have got the same answer from two people privately and here it is: New Skete were canonical RCs using the Byzantine Rite who, when they formed their own monastery, weren't accepted by any Byzantine Catholic group for fear of an accusation of sheep-stealing (from the Romans?), so they remained under the RC ordinary of Albany, NY, until they joined the OCA.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

I don't know about sheep-stealing, but there was a picture of one monk from there with a sheepish grin ...

Alex

Serge,

"New Skete were canonical RCs using the Byzantine Rite who, when they formed their own monastery, weren't accepted by any Byzantine Catholic group for fear of an accusation of sheep-stealing (from the Romans?), so they remained under the RC ordinary of Albany, NY, until they joined the OCA."

This is correct and is attested in the book, In the Spirit of Happiness, by the Monks of New Skete. However, I think the reason given why they didn't come under Byzantine jurisdiction was less about sheep stealing and more about the Byzantine bishop not wanting to have to deal with them. They were cutting edge Byzantinizers before the movement really took hold in the Byzantine Catholic Church.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

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