Dear LatinTrad,
Yes, I'll admit I was a bit annoyed with some Latins yesterday . . .
The charge of "heresy" against our Cantor Joseph by PoxTecum set me off.
I raised the issue of annulments to: a) get under some Latin skin; b) try and figure out why some Latins appear to be so smug about their Church when there are obvious problems concerning chasms between theory and practice in it; and c) get under some Latin skin.
Since I obviously succeeded in doing a) and c), I wanted to go back to b).
I'm not suggesting that the Church should change its teaching on annulments, marriage and the like.
Latin traditionalists will attack the Orthodox Church on its teaching and position on annulment and remarriage - but without taking a good hard look at what is happening in their own ecclesial backyard in this respect.
And there are two views on the subject in this thread.
Paul represents the view that the annulments granted in the U.S. are done so legitimately (and I'm not questioning that) on the basis of Church authority.
PoxTecum didn't accept any of that, as he said, "crap" and least of all any of mine in this respect.
He asserted a particular traditionalist Latin view that the bishops and laity who are confecting such annulments are going against the teaching of the Church, are liberals etc. In short, their views and actions on what constitutes grounds for annulment goes against what the Roman Church teaches and tells them to do - an act of disobedience, in short.
LatinTrad agrees, I believe, with PoxTecum insofar as he doesn't agree with what the U.S. bishops are confecting in this regard.
But, in all honesty, we really have to disregard the traditionalist Latin view here insofar as it appears to be attacking its own church on this score.
Paul is right in this - we can only go with what the U.S. bishops are allowing here.
To say otherwise is to go against one's own episcopal authority, which is intolerable from a Catholic point of view.
At the same time, it is clear that the "bar" so to speak on what is accepted by Roman Catholic Church authorities to allow an annulment is now "higher" than at other times.
It would appear that the Church, at least locally and here in particular, has shifted the grounds for annulments and this is even seen in the large number of annulments that are being granted each year where Latin Catholics are getting their previous marriages annulled and are then getting married to another partner.
My point here is that I don't see much difference between THIS practice and the practice of the Orthodox Church with respect to annulling marriages to allow a future marriage to another partner.
This was my way of going after Latin triumphalism that expresses itself in this way: The Catholic Church is better than Orthodoxy because it teaches the indissolubility of marriage.
If the bishops of the Catholic Church allow annulments, and I'm not questioning their right to do so as they see fit, I think this practice does impact on the teaching of the Church on the indissolubility of marriage.
It is insufficient to say that the bishops are in error and that if Rome had any say etc.
The point is that Catholics on this continent are obtaining annulments, and in larger numbers than ever before, with the consent and approval of the Church and are getting married to other partners.
That is my point. The fact that there is more than one Latin view on this situation here speaks for itself as well.
Both Roman CAtholic and Orthodox Churches annul marriages and allow for "remarriage" or however one wishes to call it.
Also, my point on the Blessed Charlemagne was not to teach the obvious.
PoxTecum's use of "Most Christian King" I think it was, suggested, at least to me it did, that he wasn't taking that epithet seriously in connection with Charlemagne.
As a student of his age, I just wanted to offer a brief defence of him.
If I misunderstood the intention in the use of those parentheses, I apologise.
Again, to want to defend a saint, even if I was mistaken in assuming that his name was being in any way impugned, is not a vice. At least the Church doesn't believe so.
LatinTrad, it is always good to converse with you here!
Alex
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