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FYI, I ran across this article and thought the forum might find it interesting. I know this is a Latin Church thing but it still is an interesting read.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewrec.cfm?refnum=16377

Vatican Caution Against Preparing Women For Diaconate

VATICAN, Sep 17, 01 (CWNews.com) - In an unusual document signed by the heads of three Vatican Congregations, the Holy See has cautioned strongly against programs that would prepared women for the ordained diaconate.

The Vatican "notification"-- issued jointly by the Congregations for the Doctrine of the Faith, Divine Worship, and the Clergy-- says that such programs create "hopes which are lacking a solid doctrinal foundation and which can generate pastoral disorientation." The document is signed by the prefects of those congregations: Cardinals Joseph Ratzinger, Jorge Medina Estevez, and Dario Castrillon Hoyos, respectively. It was specifically approved by Pope John Paul II prior to publication.

The Vatican officials said that there are many other ways in which the Church can promote the dignity of women and their participation in the Church without ordaining women deacons. There has been substantial debate among Catholic historians and theologians as to whether women were ordained as deacons in the past. A Vatican commission has been studying the question of female deacons for seven years, and is expected to conclude that study later this year.

The full text of the latest Vatican notice follows:

"1. Our offices have received from several countries signs of courses that are being planned or underway, directly or indirectly aimed at the diaconal ordination of women. Thus are born hopes which are lacking a solid doctrinal foundation and which can generate pastoral disorientation.

"2. Since ecclesial ordination does not foresee such an ordination, it is not licit to enact initiatives which, in some way, aim to prepare candidates for diaconal ordination.

"3. The authentic promotion of women in the Church, in conformity with the constant ecclesial magisterium, with special reference to (the magisterium) of his Holiness John Paul II, opens other ample prospectives of service and collaboration.

"4. The undersigned Congregations-- within the sphere of their proper authority-- thus turn to the individual ordinaries, asking them to explain (this) to their own faithful and to diligently apply the above-mentioned directives."

Rome has aved us again! Bennedictimus Domino!!!!

Sorry, thats SAVED!

I read the above statement that it remains an open question, though caution is being advised.

Axios

What did Rome save us from?

in Christ,

anastasios

PS--I want to see ordained women deacons!!

Why should we do something that has never been done in our church?

Also, I don't know of many churches that baptize adult women in the nude any more.


David

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

>>>Why should we do something that has never been done in our church?

If it would serve the community, it should be done. Plus, "never being done in our church" is subjective. What is our Church? The Ruthenian? Or the "Byzantine"? If it is the "Byzantine" then we certainly did have women deacons in our Church.

Practical uses would be to stand in the back of the Church during confessions or counseling to ensure that the priest is held blameless, to take communion to the sick like deacons can, etc.

>>>Also, I don't know of many churches that baptize adult women in the nude any more.

That wasn't the deaconess's only function.

anastasios

Anastasios,
It is funny how this topic keeps coming up.

It was stated in an earlier thread that the Slavic Byzantine Churches never had deaconesses.

Really what you say they could be used for,


Are all things that can be done by Deacons, maybe we should restore our permanent diaconate before we start creating, or reviving, new things. I believe that this is a better way to go.

Also, I see a problem with this, it will give ammunition to those that are for priestesses. It would muddy the waters unnecessarily.


It might not have been their only function, but it was their main function. Actually I do not remember a good defined list of what their functions were.

Just because something was in our past, doesn't mean that it is valid or good. Just look at the revival of disco music and modes of dress.


Your brother in Christ,
David

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear David,

I don't want to get into this matter, but as a point of clarification, "Deaconess" was and is an order, although not part of Holy Orders as a Deacon is, that the Eastern Churches have always had.

"Deacon" is the first rank of the Ministerial Priesthood (as opposed to the Royal Priesthood like us ).

The Byzantine Church never had women ordained to the ministerial priesthood, regardless of what specific roles the deaconess had or might have.

Alex

Alex,
You said,


Doesn't change the fact that the Slavic Byzantine Churches never used this "specific role".

Nor does it change the fact that those who are for the ordination of female priests will use this in the media as a win for their side and cloud the issue, as I said, it will muddy the waters.

We should work to restore what we already have before we start reviving something we no longer use and as I see it, there is not need for.

Sort of like the married bishop deal that also keeps cropping up here. (pushing buttons here)

As I said, just because something is in our past does not mean that it is valid today.

I think that is the first thing we must answer, if it is valid today.

We must first work to restore the permanent diaconate, which is in the works.

You do not start something and then start another thing to correct the same problem until you see if the first thing works.

Your brother in Christ,
David

Dear David,

Yes, I agree - my point was simply that a "Deaconess" is not a "female Deacon" but a separate order that, at one time, all Eastern Churches had, including the Slavic ones.

A deaconess is like a nun and dresses similarly to one, but has different roles.

Alex

Alex,
That's one of my very issues, you say that a deaconess is not a "Female Deacon" and that they had different roles yet anastasios said;


His use for them would be to replace Deacons, what were the roles of a deaconess?

Also you say all the Eastern Churches had them, I think you are wrong, or at least you didn't speak up about this in earlier threads where it was stated that the Slavic Churches did not have this tradition.

From Thomas on 01-16-2002 (bold emphasis added):


Your brother in Christ,
David :p

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear Alex,

You are right in the distinction between deaconess, and female deacons.

The "dress" of the deaconess is an interesting point. That they dress like nuns, may be co-incidence. The current deaconesses (in the Greek Church, and in the Romanian Church) are all nuns already, and blessed in their monasteries. Also, the deaconesses in the Cistercian Order (until this century) were also nuns already. I suspect that the idea that deaconesses dressed like nuns, comes from this habit in recent memory, that the candidates for this blessing were already nuns, rather than the idea that the blessing initiated a new style of dress?

Elias

David,

Yes, a deacon could possibly witness confessions (from the back of church, or with ear blocks!) but if a deaconESS were there, that would help considerably in the minds of the people who assume that men are all predators, or who might think the deacon is in cahoots with the priest.

In Christ,

anastasios

Dear David,

As Hieromonk Elias states, I am right

The Deaconess was most prevalent in the Kyivan Church in its early years when many adults were baptized etc.

Many Churches are bringing them back, many of them are already nuns.

Anastasios the Academician is more than sufficiently qualified to defend his positions without someone like me in his corner.

Besides, I think he would prefer to have a deaconess there .

Alex