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Dear Father Mark,

When I saw a photograph of our RC parish church circa 1880 I noticed that there were no pews execept some benches against the wall. My perception was that that the people were poor and could not afford pews. Today the parish and the local economy has prospered and we have pews in the church.

Could the tradition of not having pews be a bi-product of poverty?

Best wishes and blessings,

Paul

Whilst the western lack of pews certainly may be a biproduct of poverty, they are simply not part of the Eastern spiritual tradition.

One of the most wonderful things about Eastern Christianity is the idea that we worship God holistically. We do not simply worship with souls and voice, but we worship with our bodies.

The Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete which we chant during Lent expects us to feel the feebleness of our bodies together with our souls. We physically ache after this great act of penance. When we chant those begging words, 'Have mercy upon me O God, have mercy upon me', we bow to the floor, literally throwing ourselves before the God of Mercy. How can this be done in the pew? The pew divorces the bodily worship from the spiritual. It creates a dichotomy which looses part of our humanity in divine worship.

Bows to the waist/na poyas or prostrations/zemnoy poklony are physical reflections of the earnestness and fervency of our supplications. This is particularly true of the Lenten services.

In Eastern Christianity - in Orthodoxy at least - we claim to be maximalist. I cannot see how this could be true in a pew filled Church.

In the Old Rite, we expect there to be three smells in prayer - beeswax, incense and SWEAT!

Worship has become too comfortable.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

and SWEAT!

Hmmmmmmm... with sweat comes stench.

This seems to be an endorsement of the use of pews. :p

Pews....a symbol of Western decadence! Get rid of them all I say!

Actually my local church of St Andrews in Kentish Town London has pews...they are interestingly carved...but not all use them. There is this wonderful old couple that do plenty of standing up and falling on teh ground...but I do agree...it can be restrictive.

On the other side, the Russian Cathedral in Ennismore Gardends is perfect. Only a few chairs....sombre...peaceful... I tell you...standing for 6 odd hours during the Easter Service is something. Really brings out your character (also shows that the old babushkas have more guts than the lazy teenagers).

Anton

Dear Anton,

Our parish has pews and would have gotten rid of them except that the whole floor is on a slant and most of our elderly people would probably do a very sudden and LONG prostration were those pews taken away.

And, in so doing, they would be breaking the church norm that teaches us NOT to call attention to ourselves in church by banging our heads against the floor . . .

As for Fr. Mark's comment on the stench - it is a question of which "pews" are more bearable . . .

Alex

Ohhh.....Alex....bad puns my friend...bad puns! Thats one negative thing on your Final Judgement list!

Anton

Dear Anton,

O.K., no more PUNishment for you!

Alex

Archbishop Kallistos said it best, "Take them out and BURN them."

I have the artwork done (Mark, don't worry, I'm definitely no threat to talented artists) but have yet to have the $$$ to spare to print T-shirts or bumper stickers.

Said artwork shows a sad-faced figure in prison garb, ball-and-chain on leg, imprisoned in a pew. Picture inside of the universal red slashed circle. Caption reads "Friends don't make friends pray in pews."

Cheers,

Sharon

Thank you for your response Father Mark.

I'm glad to see that we can have some fun with this thread. I don't want to take life too seriously

Every once in a while I could do a prostration during Mass , but it's not in the Western tradition, except on Good Friday when the clergy prostrate themselves before the altar at the beginning of the Good Friday Service. It is quite moving to see it.

Paul

My dear esteemed Administrator,

Stench is a non-factor in Eastern churches, for covering malodors is an accidental benefit to using extravagant amounts of incense many times throughout a given service. Sometimes it is difficult to see ten or fifteen feet in front of myself by the beginning of the Anaphora.

I just tuned up my chain saw...anybody need it?

The pews with fire-retardant cushions and fabric seats don't burn nearly as well and are a lot more smoky...

Randy,

Saturday morning. It's on the church calendar/bulletin.

PEW = Personal Environment for Worship

Dear Fr. Mark,

Father, bless!

I agree with every word you said, and most others in this thread. The saintly Fr. Andriy Chirovsky wrote an article on why pews are an "abomination" (his word) for Eastern Christians. It`s in a back issue of *Diakonia* around 1980 if memory serves (I can dig out the actual reference if anyone is interested). With his usual wit, he called his article "Anathema Sit!"

Prostrations are impossible in pews. In Fr. Andriy`s words, "I defy anyone�even a contortionist�to do a prostration in a pew!"

We started with our prostrations last night at Vespers of Cheesefare week. In addition to the venerable St. Elias, the only other Greek Catholic "parish" I know of in Canada without pews is the Sheptytsky Institute Chapel.

As one who was raised a Western Protestant, standing took some getting use to, but now I wouldn`t have it any other way. You really do get used to it quite quickly, I find. Now two hours is nothing, and I don`t mind it a bit. (The longest I`ve stood was 3 hours and 45 minutes at the 25th anniversary Praznyk and pontifical at St. Elias in September 2001�but it was SUCH blissful singing and celebration that not only did I not mind, but I would have been happy to stand for another hour or so and sing Vespers after!)

Of course, the flooring and your footwear can make a difference: stone floors are harder to stand on; and good footwear is important�no sandals, I`ve found. But if you have decent shoes and a wood floor, you will be alright. (If your lower back bothers you, I find, during a Divine Liturgy at least, that you can reeeeeeeaally stretch it when you do a metania at the words of institution in the Anaphora!)

The other problem with pews is that they invariably come with those kneeler things, and thus you are pressured into using them to kneel which, on Sundays at least, is of course forbidden. But try standing and see what sorts of stares you get!

Adam

Give it to Andrij - he can find a good use for it !!