www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Date of Easter for Byzantine Catholics

akemner,

The importance understood at the Ecumenical Synods with regard to setting the date of Passover was not having it fall precisely on an alleged anniversary of the actual event, but rather that unity of the Church could be achieved.

It is for this reason that the drift in the Julian Calendar for the date of the vernal equinox relative to the actual celestial event is unimportant. The Church is not concerned with astronomical accuracy.

The same is true for the Nativity. Does it matter whether or not Christ was actually born on December 25th?

Therefore, to answer your question, with all of the leap years, leap days, leap hours, and other adjustments of the Gregorian, it would be much easier to simply return to the Julian Calendar than to try to "fix" the Gregorian.

Another point I would like to make for all those who espouse that the Pope is not above an Ecumenical Synod and therefore not the supreme authority over all, consider that with the introduction of the popes calendar he has single handedly overturned the decisions and devices of several Ecumenical Synods and destroyed the Typicon.

And this same question of authority over an Ecumenical Synod was why it was so important for the masonic "patriarch" of Constantinople in 1923 to pretend that the calendar change was the result of an "Pan-Orthodox" council.

Clearly the work of Satan.

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Also, I forgot to answer your question about "and not with the Jews".

It is important to understand that this phrase only means that the date of pascha should not be based on the current practice of the Jews. It was not widely known that the calculations the Jews used for Passover had changed.

So, it is therefore possible to celebrate Passover at the same time as the Jews as long as we did not use their method for calculation.

In conclusion, it is not as though the Holy Fathers were concerned about celerating Passover at the same time as the "dog-gone stinkin Jews", but rather, that all Christians should be united and there should be no questions with regard to Christian practice.

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Well, well, well, observing two Easters! That sounds like a neat idea, as far as dealing with an ethnic community goes. In what way is this done? Does the priest celebrate two actual Paschal liturgies or does the parish just observe the holiday aspects?

I believe that the extremely magnificant Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in Philadelphia does this (Or at least from what Ive heard).

Robert K.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OrthodoxyOrDeath:
[QB]Orthoman,

Well then I guess Finland is deposed along with her Patriarch (Black Bart), and places all those who commune with them in a serious state of scandal.


Come on, isnt that just a little disrespectful to speak of his All Holiness as "black bart". I mean, Im a member of ROCOR and still you wouldnt hear me speaking of such an important fellow like that. This is just another sad example of what you Greek old calendarist will sink to in order to brainwash everyone to thinking like yourselves.

Smear, smear, smear, smear, smear.

Robert K.

Robert K.

Well, here is how ecumenists answer my questions about their vague and fashionable statements...

I perhaps called Bart "black" in the sense that his robes are black, and his skin is darker than mine. And thus when you see him you think, "there's black Bart". It was certainly not an exclusive implication, but could have been, but it may have not been, that Bart is black as in evil, after all, he calls himself a "Patriarch" and therefore it must be so.


"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel; Which is not another; but there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1, 6-8)

Smear, smear, smear, smear Christ, that's ok. But don't ever dare call Bart black, that is socially unacceptable in our wonderously hypocritical society.

[ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Dear OOD,

OK. I read on the website of a Greek Orthodox Church out West that the Ecumenical Council defined the vernal equinox as being 8 April. Taking into account the calendar difference, it seems to me that 8 April is 20/21 March on the Julian Calendar. So that, for me, solves the question of what is considered the equinox by the Council, which is a question I was confused about, but only briefly :p .

With that said, I'm having a little trouble understanding this method of calculations, maybe you can help me.

When you're using that chart to calculate dates, I understand how you get the proper column -- you go by the remainder. But how do you get the proper row? I don't see how that works...thanks!

P.S. Is it proper to say that the Pope axed the Typikon? You say it was done in 1923...giving the Pope the benefit of the doubt, the East and the West were split by then for at least eight hundred years. I highly doubt he had anything to do with it.

And also, I concur with Robert K. It is disrespectful to refer to the Patriarch of Constantinople as "Black Bart".

Dear Brother Orthoman,
I think you stressed the wrong part of the text with the Jews, and forgot the before the vernal equinox.
Western Easter is never celebrated before the vernal equinox, but on some rare occassions all three celebrations co incide. As I believe they did a few years ago, Orthodox Easter, Latin Easter, and the Jewish Passover.
Stephanos I

PS By the way, I think the West should just start celebrating Easter along with the East.

Both have the same formula for the determination of Easter anyway as decreed by Nicea in 325.
The first sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. Is this not correct?

[ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: Stephanos I ]

Dear OOD,
You wrote:
Why? Because the Typikon takes into consideration only the possible combination of the fixed and moveable calendars that occurs with Pascha bound between March 22 and April 25. Therefore, Annunciation can only fall between Thursday of the 3rd week of Lent and Bright Wednesday. According to the "Revised Julian Calendar," right now Annunciation can fall between the Friday of the First Week of Great Lent and Thursday of the 6th week of Lent. Guess what? The Typikon has no rubrics on how to combine Annunciation with services of the First Week of Lent, or the Sunday of Orthodoxy. Such combinations are impossible under the traditional calendar used by the..."

Indeed this is the case in a mixed caledar situation such as in the Orthodox parishes in the Western Diaspora. However, to the best of my knowledge, this is not the case in a 'pure calendar' (my neologism) situation. In other words, this would not be the case using only the Julian Calendar for both fixed feasts and moveable feast, all the combinations foreseen in the Typikon can occur (such as Kyriopascha - the co-incidence of Annunciation and Pascha. Also when using the Gregorian calendar for fixed feasts and the western computation for Easter the same combinations and co-incidences can occur. If this is not your understanding, please let me know. It seems however that the Typikon is only then 'scrapped' in the mixed calendar situation such as we see so often here in the USA. Please comment.

Bob

Dear OoD,

Okey dokey. I am not sure what you mean by "alleged anniversary," but I do understand that the actual date that this event happens is not important. I have another question. To start, the gregorian calendar has all those dreadful leap-year rules so the actual astronomical events happen the same time every year. Now, the julian calendar does not have the omission of leap-years on _ _ 00 years, which causes an even greater divergence between the calendars. Now my question (s), Is it true that the Orthodox Pascha "drifts" toward the summer months, and if so, will this not also negate the Typikon? Or is there a way that this is corrected and not a problem, and what is this? Or does the calendar drift, so that one day the Nativity will be in the summer, or Pascha in the cold of winter?

I'm sorry, but I have'nt checked back in awhile.

akemner's question is simple enough. The Julian calendar doesn't drift toward the summer, it is the dawg gone solar system that is out of wack Nothing will change even if we have Pascha in the fall. Imagine if you were on Mars, would the seasons matter even a bit?

Also, it would be nice if Orthodoxy could someday get it's act together and have an Ecumenical Council - I'm sure the calendar could be adjusted then and for ALL. I doubt that will happen, it seems the world is going into the heap.

Stephanos and Bob King, forgive me but I have to go, my baby is sick and my wife is having a hard time. I'll try and answer tomorrow.

Dear OoD,

Thank you for your responses. Now if only those Greeks...

I pray for your baby and wife. We have 10 month old, and know there is nothing worse than seeing your child in the intensive care unit....

In all this talk about the calendar, has anyone made the distinction between the Early Church's celebration of PASCHA and that of the RESURRECTION?

Cantor Joe Thur

Dear Joe

Angela

"Has anyone made the distiction between Pascha and Resurrection"

Obviously not. Would the celebration of the Resurrection be the weekly Lord's Day celebration and Pascha be the annual? How does the weekly celebration relate to the calendar issue? Is the disjunction of the calendars even worse, when one considers the fact that Sunday worship is directly tied to the Annual Feast? Every one talks about how "Easter" is not together, but this is a problem that goes throughout the whole year. So is it really necessary to deliniate twixt the two, since 52 Pascha celebrations are divergent, not just one?

Adam

So, what WAS Pascha? Was it really the Resurrection? Are we talking about the same event?

We sing the Paschal Hymns:

"... the sacred Pasch is revealed to us, holy and new Pasch, the mystical Passover, the venerable Passover, the Pasch which is Christ the Redeemer, spotless Pasch, great Pasch, the Pasch of the faithful, the Pasch which is the key to the gates of Paradise, the Pasch which sanctifies all the faithful."

Let's reflect: the connection here is the Passover, the annual Jewish feast. Here is a clip from Jewfaq.org:

"The name "Pesach" (PAY-sahch, with a "ch" as in the Scottich "loch") comes from the Hebrew root Peh-Samech-Chet meaning to pass through, to pass over, to exempt or to spare. It refers to the fact that G-d "passed over" the houses of the Jews when he was slaying the firstborn of Egypt. In English, the holiday is known as Passover. "Pesach" is also the name of the sacrificial offering (a lamb) that was made in the Temple on this holiday."

We state that this Pasch was "spotless." The Paschal Lamb for the Jews had to be free from 73 blemishes (read: spotless). Obviously, the Temple priests in the QC Department worked overtime every Passover!

We also sing that the Pasch is Christ the Redeemer. We treat it as a 'proper pronoun' and not a reference to an 'event' (read: Christ's Resurrection).

We conclude our honor of the "delightful Pasch" with these words:

"O Passover, save us from sorrow; for today Christ has shown forth from the tomb as from a bridal chamber ..."

Our address, "O Passover," is directed to a person, not an event. This "Passover" saves us from sorrow, enough to inspire us to "embrace one another."

On Good Friday, the Theotokos laments the Word lifted up on the cross, "O Light of the World, O LAMB of God!" Our Lord is also the "LAMB willingly led" to be fastened with nails. (stichera at Psalm 140 for Vespers)

Christ is our Paschal Lamb, the Lamb of God, the New and Sacred Pasch. Our celebration of Pascha (Good Friday) was eventually fused with our celebration with the Resurrection (Sunday) after the celebration of this great mystery was finally decided at an Ecumenical Council. Until then, the celebration of Pascha meant our Lord's Passion.


Cantor Joe Thur