www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Ash Wednesday?

in note: in Spanish, the word for Saturday is sabato (sabbath). for Sunday, it is domingo, for the Lord.
Much Love,
Jonn

Thank you all for the thoughts and comments but I still don't know WHY the west is different.

WHY are palm ashes put on the head in the north-west and not in the north-east (where they do not grow)?

WHY does the West calculate lent as to be exactly 40 days, whereas the east considers it symbolic?

WHY did Martin Luther abstain from eggs and dairy in Lent yet most Latin/Roman Catholics today do not?

Hmmm. The Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified can be technically said to be celebrated on Saturday as it is often celebrated after sundown on Friday, but are you speaking of something else?
It was always my experience that Divine Liturgy is not normally celebrated on Saturday in the East (especially in the Byzantine Churches). In fact one of the only times I can think of, is the Holy Saturday morning Liturgy of Saint Basil.
What Church are you a part of? I'm curious as it was always my experience that Pre-Sanctified Liturgy during Lent was celebrated on Wednesdays and Fridays.

Palms grow very well in Cornwall thanks the the gulf stream. However palms are imported to the countries that require them. Hence the faithfull and not so faithfull, get 1 or 2 strands woven into a cross. Here is Australia where palms grow easily people get chopped up parts of palms.

As our seasons are back to front, the Slavs prepare by taking the bud casing of the pussy willows by hand to expose the fluffy bud. Some might have thought that as they now have access to palms in abundance the use of the pussy willow would have changed but customs are not so easy to change.

I suppose as Liturgies developed in their different ways the symbolism, as well as the rituals went along different paths as well.

The UGCC down here has Sat evening D. Lit. Like the Latins. We have a big problem with sporting activities on Sunday mornings and putting on a Liturgy after sun set was seen as the best that could be done. If they dont come to UGCC then they go to the Latins who started the Masses after sunset (first vespers etc).

ICXC
NIKA

Alex,
Your Armenian relatives refer to Sunday as "Giragee." It comes from the Greek for "Lord's Day." Thus our names for the days of the week are mostly numerical:

Yergooshaptee (2nd day of week)
Yerekshaptee (3rd day...
Chorekshaptee (4th day...
Heenkshaptee (5th day...
Oorpat (? = Friday)
Shapat (from Hebrew Shabbath)

and the first day is "Geeragee" = Lord's Day. Of course the title "Lord's Day" is certainly a reference to the Lord's Resurrection on the first day of the week. So we have this in common!

I am also glad that I am not the only person now referring to "Lent" as it is really called in the East: "The Great Fast." It is significant to call it this becuase unlike other Churches, the East has many fasts. Yet when we come the Paschal season we partake of the "Fast of Fasts," which is why it is most fitting to call it the "Great Fast." Besides, the word "Lent" reminds of something that gets stuck in my belly button and between my toes. Throwing the word "Great" before doesn't help it much. :rolleyes:

Its too bad the West is shrinking away more and more from the traditional fast. I looked my kids in the eyes the other day and explained to them that if there is one thing I want to do for them is let them experience authentic Orthodox Christianity. If they sway later into feel good religions, they will always know in their hearts what real, authentic Christianity was like. The faith of Christ is demanding and not easy street. Yet already this year, as we work harder to keep the historic fast, we are finding this time more and more spiritually rewarding.
Even after only one week (most Armenian Churches are on the new calendar) we have notice this. Rather than dreading the demands of this period we are beginning to look forward to the sacrifices and time of bonding with God and each other. I thank God for the Great Fast becuase I know I and my family need it.

I've enjoyed reading your points in this thread.

p.s. Anyone's prayers are appreciated as my wife expects our next child. This is the gang God has given us so far:
http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/family.html

Very nice family photo and another on the way. You are in my prayers.

ICXC
NIKA

No offense intended at all brother, but I always felt that killing our Eastern Traditions for a more convenient way was the wrong path to take. For instance I have HEARD of Orthodox parishes that do not have Great Vespers/Vigil on Saturday evening because "not enough people come". I always thought this was a shame. I don't agree with having Divine Liturgy on Saturday evening because you end up not preparing for Liturgy on Sunday morning, but rather celebrating. I don't mean to lecture or judge you, but Great Vespers is a wonderfully penitential, prayerful service, the body of our Lord is not to be found in the tomb and we await the celebration of Resurrection on Sunday. If there is one thing I fear about becoming Russian Catholic, it is having my Eastern praxis swallowed up by Western ways.

I too am Russian Catholic. Not many of us around.

The UGCC can get used to the idea that the young if they are still going to Church will go to the Latins, or not go at all. There you see is no room to manouver.

The Latins have good attendances at nearly all their masses. Yet Mass attendance is very low compared with the stats from the census and I think in my part of the world only 20% of RCs actually attend church. It is much lower in some parishes.

The UGCC makes changes or it can kiss those young people good bye. As Sunday starts at sunset the day before it is technically Sunday anyway, so they fullfill their duty. They do have vespers first but it is not that well attended.

A feature of Australian cities in the urban sprawl. Single story houses in their own garden and the result is people live a very long way from their one and only Church. LA sort of comes to mind minus the freeways.

ICXC
NIKA

Thank you!

Brother,

I don't wish to debate, and the UGCC is free to do as she wishes, but I do not agree that changing Eastern praxis to fit Western models is the way to develop a truly pious young person. It may be a good way to attract those who are at Divine Liturgy for the sake of convenience. Being a young-man myself, I know that true piety and devotion to God without regard for the things of the world is part of what attracts me to Christ's Church, especially in the East. I want to forsake the world.
Also, in reality one is not preserving their Eastern praxis by offering a more convenient Liturgy on Saturday evening, but just becoming more Latinized. There is an Orthodox Parish here in California, Holy Dormition, that is very uncompromising with the world. The Parish has a commune for Married and single youth on the property and celebrates the full cycle of services. That Church is filled with young people far more pious than I am. Please forgive me for being prideful and judgmental. I just don't feel that compromising with the world is the right way to go about things.

Mate I dont have a problem with your point of view. I belong the the Russian side of thr street and we are only different from the Orthodox in that the Pope's name is mentioned.

The UGCC are a different kettle of fish. They dont know much about the Orthodox Church really. They have promoted nationalism (their language and dances etc) for so long and their attitude was you come to me as I am NOT coming to you.

Naturally with that attiude they have lost a lot of their people. They drove the small Russian community to request their own priest due to the sniping they were enduring attending the Liturgy with the Ukrainians. I have discussed the reading of some priests and found they were reading western stuff and had never heard of any of the Byzantine classics.

The Cathedral has only changed in recent years to a 7 branch candlestick and the 3 big candles sticks for High Mass and the 2 small ones for Low Mass (no incense) on either side of a huge taberacle are the norm everywhere in the Eparchy still.

In the Church I attend when I can, the servers do not stand in the proper places. they stand like pre Vatican II Latin servers. Which means they are just inside the iconostas on either side and they kneel during the Anaphora outide the the iconostas. The priest was trained at St Sophia in Rome.

They have very shallow roots in the Byzantine world and all they can do is update their uniatisms as they have no idea what it is they should be doing.

ICXC
NIKA

Ah Pavel and here I am thinking you supported the view I was arguing against. Ah first day of Lent and I am already filled to the brim with prideful indignation. Forgive me. Oh and, by the way, great post.

Oh gosh NO! *shock..horror..gasp* In Byzantine Church matters I am only slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan

I agree totally. They just keep doing all sorts of the things but not the things they should. They just wont go there. You can't tell them either. Thats why we have to 2 priests who are religious in the Eparchy who are Archpriests instead of Archimandrites. Thats why we use communion plates and NO ONE at all knows what to do with those white cloths that hang from the chalice.

I knew where you were coming from all along.

ICXC
NIKA

That makes you a rabid leftist to me!!!

Uh, red, surely?

Being as we are in the same time zone I vote we just push and shove over who is a centrist out of the two of us. Now that will be interesting .

No...white Latin purifiers what hang limp and unused each and every time. I am slowly coming to the opinion that the Uks have no liturgical standards at all. Everything is happening in fits and starts. The Ukr Bishop is Canadian so what they rediscover is copied here. If they are not onto something, then neither are they here.

ICXC
NIKA