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#56221 07/11/06 08:55 AM
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Novice here. I noticed the icons the copts use are different than the byz. Why are they different ? Some history without a lecture would be nice. They seem more youthful (for a better word) than most I have seen. I really like them. Any word on a meeting between BXVI and Pope Sh. ??????????????

#56222 07/11/06 09:01 AM
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Try Google on Coptic icons (both Ethiopian & Egyptian), there is plenty of info on them there.

#56223 07/11/06 12:02 PM
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Check out this site:

www.theotokos.org [theotokos.org]

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Another good site: UK Coptic Icons [ukcopticicons.com]

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Originally Posted by kansassummer
I noticed the icons the copts use are different than the byz. Why are they different ?

Quite simply, cultural differences. If you do a bit of hunting, you can actually see extraordinary differences even among icons from various countries that are in the Byzantine tradition.


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Thymiato #323936 06/03/09 06:21 AM
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Thanks for that Site. smile

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You are quite welcome!

Thymiato #328625 07/27/09 04:07 PM
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Am I correct in remembering that Origen of Alexandra is considered a saint by the Coptic Orthodoxy Church?

I thought I saw an icon of Origen in a Coptic church.

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I had the privallege of visisting Saint Antony Coptic Orthodox monastery while I was staying at Holy Resurection Romanian Catholic Monastery. It was so nice to see Coptic Iconography. I really injoy the Coptic style and purchased an Icon from the Fathers.

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Originally Posted by Terry Bohannon
Am I correct in remembering that Origen of Alexandra is considered a saint by the Coptic Orthodoxy Church?

I thought I saw an icon of Origen in a Coptic church.

I wouldn't surprise me, given that Origen wasn't condemned until after Chalcedon, IIRC, and even then it more a condemnation of certain opinions that he didn't hold to rigorously.

Peace and God bless!

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There are a bunch of different iconographic styles in the Coptic church. Even today, some of their churches decorate their walls with very saccharine Latin-style paintings. The new style Coptic icons that have been appearing seem to be a revival of the "primitive" Coptic style with some Byzantine touches. The artist most responsible for this revival was Isaac Fanous. The icons, in my opinion, tend to have a rather cartoonish flavor. Christ, the Theotokos, and the saints are all depicted as very cuddly.

[quote=Irish Melkite]
If you do a bit of hunting, you can actually see extraordinary differences even among icons from various countries that are in the Byzantine tradition. [/quote]

That's true. Even with icons that follow the Byzantine style, there are distinct differences according to various iconographic schools. For example, the Palekh-style icons or the icons of Andrei Rublev and Theophanes the Greek look very different from icons coming from Greece and Crete at around the same time. Georgian icons also have a distinct appearance which is comparable to the new Coptic icons.

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"saccharine Latin-style paintings"

I may have seen these in the hallways of a local Coptic church. Could you link to some samples?

I rather like them.

Terry

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Such paintings represent ignorance or indifference to tradition and genuine iconography. Here are some examples: http://www.saintmaryhouston.org/category/image-galleries/icons-at-st-mary/dome-icons

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Originally Posted by Embatl'dSeraphim
Such paintings represent ignorance or indifference to tradition and genuine iconography.

At a quick glance, the linked icons are not even particularly "Coptic" - 'new style' or 'old style' to my way of thinking, seeming to have been influenced significantly by Western art - but ...

Expanding on my earlier comment, I think that it is wrong to decry iconography derived from a different culture and ethnicity as ignorant or indifferent to tradition and genuine iconography. To do so presumes that one style or school of iconography is superior, more righteous, more holy, and the standard against which all others are to be measured.

There are, indeed, a number of Churches and cultures with origins in the Byzantine tradition that embrace iconography that can only be described as 'folk-art' in their stylisms - and even some that have clearly been influenced by Western art. Those may not speak to the spirituality of all, but clearly they speak to that of some.

One of the great beauties of the differences in iconography is the diversity that one sees, such that there are few Eastern or Oriental Christians who cannot find a style that touches them spiritually. Attitudes that demand slavish adherence to and acceptance of a particular school of iconography can turn people away from iconography and make them feel 'less _______' (fill in the blank with whatever Church or culture or ethnicity that you choose) because they look on an icon from their own background and don't feel what they think they 'should' feel. Yet, iconography of another style/school/culture might speak to the deepest reaches of their spirituality - but they are made to feel that they are 'wrong' to even consider that.

It is one thing to note our personal 'preference' (not the best choice of word, but it's what comes to me at the moment) - it's another to dismiss all but our preference as somehow unworthy of consideration as iconography.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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What follows is a collection of material that I put together a few years ago to illustrate the diversity of iconographic styles and schools. As I look at it, there isn't a particular order - but maybe that's best, as it sort of heightens the point of the diversity to be found in iconography.

As this material was put together for a principally Latin audience and I haven't really edited it, some of it will be a bit basic for many here and for that I apologize. However, the links make for some interesting comparisons and, I believe, support the points I raised above. (I have not tested the links of late; if any are dead, I apologize, and will try to replace them with others that are comparable in illustrating the points being made.)

Quote
Some reading to help better understand iconography in a variety of its aspects;

The Tradition of Iconography [goholycross.org] by Bishop Kallistos Ware, an Orthodox hierarch whose writing is well-respected and widely read by Orthodox and Catholics alike.

Iconography In the Eastern Church [st-ann-melkite.org] by Bishop Nicholas Samra, Auxiliary-Emeritus of the Eparchy of Newton of the Melkites.

Byzantine Iconography [geocities.com], not a definitive work, but a reasonably well-written research paper by an anonymous student

Rules for the Painter of Icons [geocities.com], this is a simplified/condensed piece from a commercial site (a Bulgarian iconography gallery), but what it says is valid

Iconographer Marek Czarnecki [americancatholic.org], an article about a young Polish-American iconographer

Understanding How Icons Are Written - An Interview [americancatholic.org], a follow-up Q&A with the subject of the above article

Iconography [sspeterpaul.org], from Saints Peter & Paul (OCA) Church (Meriden, CT); it gives a brief intro to and then goes on to display a number of icons and describe their features. It also has a suggested reading list.

Icons & Iconography [aggreen.net], from the website of Al Green, an Orthodox layman, who has a variety of interesting webpages; this offers a significant number of great links to sources (both commercial and religious) for icons, as well as to articles, etc., on-line.

Orthodox Art & Architecture [goarch.org], on the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America site, has a concise, but thorough, history of iconography

Iconography [stpaulsirvine.org] Saint Paul’s Greek Orthodox Church, has an excellent series of articles on Greek iconography at its site.

Images [stmichaelsydney.org.au] St. Michael's Melkite Greek Catholic Cathedral, the Cathedral of the Melkite Eparchy for Australia and New Zealand, has some brief articles and beautiful examples of the Arabic style of iconography at its website.

Icons of the Theotokos [udayton.edu], from the Marian Center at the University of Dayton

Sacred Images: Statues and Other Icons [kensmen.com] describes many of the stylisms used in iconography

Symbolology Table [kensmen.com]

Iconographic Treasures of the Ecumenical Patriarchate [patriarchate.org], illustrates many of the icons in the Patriarchal Church at Constantinople, as well as describing them in detail

About Icons [mountosb.org], although by a Western iconographer, is a well-written piece and contains excellent information

Uncanonical Icons [home.earthlink.net], is unique in being an online guide to Byzantine iconography that has a section illustrating and explaining those that fail to follow the unwritten canons that have been passed down through time

Icons [udayton.edu] is an excellent series of articles from the Mariology Center at the University of Dayton that shows icons illustrative of many features discussed in the pieces; my only quibble with these otherwise excellent writings is the one in which it alludes to there being only 3 schools of iconography, Byzantine, Macedonian, and Russian

Icons Explained [iconsexplained.com] is a site which someone rightly described recently as offering a monumental amount of information relative to icons and iconography (principally focused on the Byzantine tradition)

A few things to know:

One site listed above speaks of a "painter" of icons, but you’ll also read elsewhere that the act is more properly spoken of as "writing" an icon and the iconographer, thus, is more properly termed a "writer" of icons. In recent times, there have been persuasive arguments raised that the distinction is an artificial one, based on a failure to acknowledge that the Greek words for painting and writing are not really exclusive of one another.

The rules referenced refer to certain aspects of spirituality and demeanor on the iconographer's part.

Other rules exist in regard to the subject matter and content of icons, such as that organs of the human body are not to be depicted - thus, one will not properly see an icon of the Sacred Heart, a Western or Latin devotion.

The colors to be used in some depictions are prescribed, as are some backgrounds; you will sometimes see these stated as absolutes, but a number of them are tradition-specific. That is, what is requisite or verboten in one cultural tradition will be different than another.

An iconographer, historically, didn’t doesn't sign his or her work, as to do so was felt akin is to taking credit for God's inspiration, as transmitted through the hands of His servant, the iconographer, and was deemed to be an expression of personal pride that was unworthy of the iconographer. More recently, it is not uncommon to see a notation on the back that an icon is “by the hand of”.

Some other tidbits:

Saint Luke is ordinarily considered to have been the first iconographer and the Theotokos to have been his subject

You may encounter references to "icons not written by human hands" or acheiropoietai; this refers to those Iconic representations perceived to be of Divine origination. Most commonly, these are the Mandylion of Edessa, Veronica’s Napkin, and the Shroud of Turin. The Tilma or cloak of Guadalupe is categorized similarly by some.

As far as seeing some examples of modern-day iconography by devout iconographers:

Dave Mastroberte [angelfire.com] (who posts here as Chtec) has a great site with some beautiful examples of icons in the Slav tradition; Dave is a young second-generation Orthodox iconographer

Ray Mastroberte [comeandseeicons.com], Dave’s Dad, (who posts here as 70x7), is a talented and devout iconographer whose work is also in the Slav tradition.

Tregubov Studios [tregubovstudios.com], displays the iconography of its founder, Father Alexander Tregubov.

Holy Transfiguration Monastery [thehtm.org] in Brookline, MA has had a sometimes controversial history, but its monks write devout and beautiful icons.

Brother Claude [mtangel.edu] from Mt. Angel Abbey in Oregon writes beautiful icons, albeit some are a bit more Western in style

There are a multitude of schools of iconography, with different manners and styles of expression. These include Byzantine Greek, as well as Byzantine Slav, Russian, Arabic, Coptic, and what has been referred to as the Western style. It may be helpful to become familiar with each of the styles and schools through reading and study to best know which you prefer - or, just look and see which reach out to you. Below are examples of most:

The Orthodox Church & Its Icons [home.eg-gym.dk] is a fantastic collection of links indicating various styles of iconography.

Greek Iconography [goarch.org] is relatively familiar to the Western eye and is often less stylized than that in some of the other traditions.

Bulgarian Iconography [bulgaria.com] My personal description would be that Bulgarian icons use gilt more generously, are unusually busy in detail, and are somewhat less stylized - more humanized - than others .

Embroidered Iconography [tregubovstudios.com] is primarily a traditional Russian and Ukrainian usage. Presbytera Galina Tregubov writes beautiful pieces in this medium.

Slovakian and Czech Icons [unipo.sk] tend to a folk art style. (There is a site with particularly wonderful examples of both Czech and Russian iconography, broken out into icons of the Theotokos, Saints, etc, but I can't find the link.)

Serb Iconography [sv-luka.org] has, to my untrained eye, some particularity in the look of the eyes and noses that I find lets me identify it from other styles.

Greek, Russian, and Arabic [melkite.org] styles of iconography, with specific differences among them noted, are illustrated side-by-side in a brief piece on the site of the Melkite Eparchy of Newton.

Carved Wooden Icons [comch.ru] Russian iconography includes a recently revived tradition of these. Such depictions were outlawed as uncanonical for some time, but have recently come back to favor and have also been recognized as a medium to allow blind faithful to visualize icons.

Belarusian Iconography [belarusguide.com] was somewhat influenced by Western European art techniques of the Renaissance period and, consequently, includes more attention to perspective, as well as to light and shadow.

Maronite Iconography [qadish.org] was pretty much lost in the extreme latinization of that Church by French missioners and you're more likely to find statues than icons in many Maronite churches. Efforts to revive a style have produced what always appears, to me, to be a somewhat bland facial appearance. There has also been some departure from traditional subject matter.

Byzantine Iconographic Style [home.earthlink.net] is probably the one most familiar to the Western eye. There are some excellent examples on this page.

Russian Iconography [auburn.edu] often uses brighter colors than other styles, although antique icons themselves are often considerably darkened by centuries of candle smoke and incense.

Auburn University has an excellent selection of examples of the many Russian Schools of Iconography at Russian Icons Index [auburn.edu]

Coptic Iconography [geocities.com] has a "new" and "old" style. To my own eye, the new style is not so "gentle" (for lack of a better word) as the old.. This commercial gallery offers a good visual comparison of the two.

Ethiopian Icons [nmafa.si.edu] are frequently painted on diptychs or triptychs, rather than single panels. They tend to use perhaps the most brilliant color palette found among any of the styles and many have a folk art style to them.

Mosaic Iconography [stjohnsarmenianchurch.org] is very common among the Armenians.

Romanian Iconography [roua.org] includes a tradition of icons on glass

Macedonian Iconography [mpc.org.mk] often seems to reflect a somewhat surprised or slightly amused countenance on the subjects, making them very human. The posing of the Infant and the Theotokos is also quite refreshingly unique in some of the icons from this culture.

Macedonia also has traditions of both Frescoed Iconography [soros.org.mk] (use the horizontal scroll bar at bottom of page) and Terra-Cotta Iconography [macedoniadirect.com]

Georgian Iconography [geoart.iatp.org.ge] tends to a softness, with older examples being best described as primitive art. This Church also has a strong history of enameled icons. (patience - the page to which I linked is very slow to load)

Albanian Iconography [albanianorthodox.com] tends to depict the Theotokos with particularly tender eyes to my way of thinking (the 5th icon in the 5th row of icons is among my personal favorites)

Slav styles are well-illustrated on the pages of Dave and Ray Mastroberte, to which I provided links above.

Interestingly, although the Mandylion, the first Icon-Not-By-Human-Hands, is attributed to Assyria, there is no surviving strong history of iconography among the Assyrians and Chaldeans, although, of late, there has been an effort to search out ancient sites and research further on the matter.

Icons of Saint John of Damascus [balamand.edu.lb], at the University of Balamand site, is particularly interesting in having collected icons of the Saint that were prepared in several different styles, offering a fascinating comparison.

Medieval Wall Painting in the English Parish Church [paintedchurch.org] is a fascinating site, first brought to my attention by a friend on an Orthodox forum who considered the paintings to be an extraordinary example of early Western iconography. I agree. (Go to the Main Contents Page and then to the Panoramic Quick View.)

Missing from this listing are links to iconography of the Old Believers, which I can’t locate at the moment and examples of khorugvi (cloth icons).

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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