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Dear Broric,

Could you explain what you mean here?

Who said Mary was a god?

Alex

I once knew a roman rite priest who is of this movment. He told me them men are devout to God. However, he was troubled by some of the launguage used. These men speak of Mary is if she was a redeemer and believe its neccesary to go through her to get to Jesus. They call her a co redeemer. They teach that it doesnt mean a redeemer. If it dont mean redeemer than dont use the word! There launge is deceptive.

Dear Broric,

I agree that certain traditional RC language about the Theotokos can be a bit much.

But our own Akathist to the Bogoroditsa-Mother of God extolls her as She "through whom we worship God."

Just as Christ came to us through the Theotokos, so too we go to Him through her.

And there is the great Byzantine prayer that is unique in the Christian world,

Most Holy Theotokos SAVE us!

And who can save but Christ? And yet this is how we pray to Her who has such power before the Throne of Her Son in her prayers for our salvation.

The Gospel itself has the Archangel Gabriel praising the Virgin Mary FIRST and then Christ:
Blessed are you among women and blessed is the Fruit of Thy womb!

And the Mother of God never keeps the praise we give her for herself, but always gives God the glory. After St Elizabeth said, "Blessed are you among women!", the Mother of God sang her beautiful hymn immediately, "My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit exults in God my Saviour! For He has taken regard on the lowliness of His servant and lo all generations will call me Blessed! etc.

I, for one, always want the Mother of God beside me and in me when I approach Her Son. I give myself to Him through her.

The more the Holy Spirit finds her in our souls, the more He will form the Lord Jesus in us, just as He did in her at the Annunciation.

Have a nice day . . .

Alex

Alex-The more the Holy Spirit finds her in our souls, the more He will form the Lord Jesus in us, just as He did in her at the Annunciation


Your above statement is nonsense, Mary can be loved and adored just like any other Saint. To recieve more of Jesus from Spirit has nothing to do with her being in our heart. Where do you get this from. We do need people to intercede for us and she is our queen. "through the prayers of the Mother of God o savior save us". But she is no requirment to recieve grace only a helper. As far as the Akathist- it a traditional prayer to honor her not a theological exspression. I sure this taken out of context of its original intention. Any way its a prayer written by a imperfect human and not a Truth set by the Church.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Broric ]

Broric,

Never before and never again will anyone else claim to be the Mother of God. So she is quite different then any other saint. I would have used the word heart. If we keep the Blessed Mother in our hearts(we can just like we do our loved ones)we will come to emulate her humility, obedience and openess to the Holy Spirit just like she did at the Annunciation. Do you have a relationship with her or any other Saints?

Nicky's Baba

I love Mary and Pray to her daily in the rosary. She indeed is special of all the saints. But I can emulate any saint and arrive at their virtues. The saints inspire all of us. But to say such a thing like :

quote:The more the Holy Spirit finds her in our souls, the more He will form the Lord Jesus in us, just as He did in her at the Annunciation


Is misleading. She is not my salvation. I need her just as much as she needs me. We togther are a Church. I could say this to, the more the Holy Spirit finds John the Baptist in my soul the more he form Jesus in us. Saying things like that can lead to idoltry. The truth is virtues come as a result of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Also, grace can not be earned God gives it when he pleases.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Broric ]

Dear Broric,

I would like to ask you a question or two or even three

Have you ever read any of the works of St Louis Marie de Montfort ?

His works are wonderful and he explains exactly how devotion to Our Mistress helps us to find Jesus through Her, and through Jesus, God the Father, and there we find all good.

After all She bore Our Saviour, She nurtured Him, She shared in His Suffering and Death,and She shared in the joy of His most Glorious Resurrection. Can She therefore not bring us to Her Son if we ask for Her help ?

Can He who saved us all resist the plea of His Mother ?

May Our Blessed Lady , Mother of us all, and my Mistress, keep us safe in Her tender care.

Angela

I have indeed read his works. I believe they are heritcal. They are not approved by the Church authority as authentic teachings. We do not need Mary to get close to God. All we need is the gift of the Spirit which we recieve in baptism. Do you think God would deny me his love and uncreated grace if I refused to pray my rosary daily. Mary emulated Christ. So did st. francis. Do I need st. francis to get close to God. Of course not! Mary is special in the order of grace. She is co-medatrix. Her prayers are powerful and she prays for all the Church. She prays for even the protastents who do not want her motherhood. God's love is a gift, grace is a gift. Mary is a Gift and not means to be closer to God.However, through her prayers we can. My daughter through my prayers can be closer to God to. We are a family together- This is true devotion. Mutual love not required for my salvation love. Mary and all the saints are family. They need us and we need them. We are a Church togather

Dear Broric,

I don't know if you are a Catholic, but the teachings of St Louis de Montfort are not only not heretical, they are approved by the Church and His Holiness the Pope would like to make him a Doctor of the Church.

What you have said about Mary is wrong and goes against the tradition of both the CAtholic and Orthodox Churches.

Mary is not needed absolutely of course. But God came to us through Mary as our Incarnate Lord.

What you said about other saints does not apply to the Most Holy Mother of God because she served for the dread mystery of the Incarnation.

Alex

Dear Broric,

As someone who came from a tradition that didn't pay much heed at all to Mary, I can tell you that as I came to know Mary more, I could appreciate her above the other saints. What Alex has written about her is true. And I have briefly read some excerpts of Saint Louis de Monfort. I've been uncomfortable with some things he's said, but our friend Angela is teaching me, so I'm not ready to cast him out just yet.

Mary is the Mother of God. Plain and simple. Saint Francis wasn't. Nor was anyone else. I myself know that I could never refuse my earthly mother a reasonable request, I wouldn't have the heart for it. I'm sure His Heart couldn't refuse a request from the woman from whom He got the human nature necessary to have a heart. I know that whenever I've asked God for something that He's often refused me that gift. But when I prayed for something and asked the intercession of the Mother of God, I always received it. I'm not saying that Mary's better than God, but only that my experience has proven for me that God can't refuse a reasonable request made to Him by His Mother.

Whenever I've needed courage to face my sins and confess them, or bear my cross patiently...whenever I've had any pressing need, I would of course pray to God, but I prayed to Mary, and I immediately felt consolation and help. Is Mary better than God? Is God de-valued in this? No. "God is glorified in His Saints!"

As someone who wasn't raised and taught to pray to the saints, I had trouble doing that at first. Sure I could say prayers written by others, but I couldn't just talk to them and ask them for help like I would to God. It was hard, it wasn't the way I was taught from the beginning. But when I tried to do so with Mary, it was the easiest thing in the world. Why shouldn't it be? I sometimes think Protestants live in a dysfunctional family because they have a Father and Brother (Jesus), but no Mama, so it's hard for them. But thanks be to God, we have a Mother!

Sure, she's not absolutely necessary...God alone! as Saint Louis de Monfort said (I think). Only God is necessary...only Jesus is necessary...only His Life-giving Birth and Baptism, only the message of His oral preaching, only His Redeeming sufferings, only His Salvific Passion and Death in the body, and only His bodily Resurrection and Ascension into heaven.

He wouldn't "have the guts" for all of this, if it wasn't for Mary.

We do not need Mary to get close to God. All we need is the gift of the Spirit which we recieve in baptism. Do you think God would deny me his love and uncreated grace if I refused to pray my rosary daily. Mary emulated Christ. So did st. francis. Do I need st. francis to get close to God. Of course not!

I agree, sorta, but then...

Mary is special in the order of grace. She is co-mediatrix.

Whoa! We went from her not being necessary at all to get close to God to this?? That's quite a jump...

O Ever-Virgin Mother of God, may your prayers be a stronghold to us!

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Mor Ephrem ]

Dear Catholicos,

Welcome to Our Lady's Slave Galley!

Just love y'a, Big Guy, I think you're too cool!

(Does your lady friend share my view? I think she must!)

Alex

Just because the holy father wants to make a saint a doctor does not mean that there teachings are authorative. For example two doctors of the church St. thomas aquanis and st. catherine of sienna who are both doctors. Dienied the immaculate conception. We can believe what we want about her and make up our own hertical views. I choose only to see her in light of scripture and apostilc authartive tradtion! Show in these do I need her for my salvation and I will be a believer.

Dear Broric,

Please remember that you want to be a priest. Calm down and let's look at this carefully.

Thomas Aquinas is a doctor of the Church and he did deny the Latin doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, but he could do that since that doctrine was not defined by his Church as yet.

The Catholic Church would not have canonized St Louis de Montfort if it thought that he had taught heresy.

In that case, his canonization would not have been possible.

The Pope's own papal motto, "Totus Tuus" which, as you know, means "Totally Yours" is addressed to the Mother of God and is taken directly from the writings of St Louis de Montfort.

One need not like the writings of St Louis, but to call them heretical or him, would be, in and of itself, heretical and sinful for any Catholic.

In my approach to him, I have compared his writings with those of Eastern Fathers and, most importantly, with the Byzantine liturgical tradition which sings that we worship God "Through Her" or the Mother of God and many, many other prayers and hymns that celebrates her, above any angel or saint, for her role in the Divine Incarnation.

St Louis writes nothing that is new. Everything that he writes is taken from the Eastern and Western Fathers, and the fathers of the French Berullian school that is very close to Eastern spirituality with its emphasis on the Trinity, Divine Wisdom, the Incarnation, Mary as God-Bearer etc.

I too initially thought to reject St Louis' work.

I visited the Church in Paris where he said his first Divine Liturgy or Mass.

And I saw many, many people praying there, seeking union with Jesus through Mary.

I have not been the same since, and the more I think of Mary, the more I want to worship and adore my Lord Jesus. I now fully understand why He became man and took our nature from Her.

This is a deep celebration of the Truth of the Incarnation and I thank God every day for it, and for Angela, my mentor, in assisting me in so many ways.

May God bless you and make you a Priest after his own heart through the intercession of the Most Holy Mother of God.

Alex

Yes, she does, and then some.

What about st. catherine, still the fact is these saints taught things that were not true. They were still made doctors. Instead of heresy I will use the word false teaching. To teach the false teachings today would be heresy. I can pick and choose my own belief " which means heresy" from the church fathers and tradtions. Like st. lious did out of love for our lady. He got carried away. To teach these things is heretical because they have no place in scripture or the church councils. Would be all right if I subsited mary and said through enoch or elijah to jesus. These to were taken into heaven. Please dont threaten me about my call to priesthood. I will always teach the truth! Just like my priest teaches me and who does fully agree with me to call mary a co redeemer is NONSENSE!