www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Co-redeemer???

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I think there is too much room for misunderstanding. Although it may not be heresy outright, I think it does border on it for those of us without the theological background.

Dmitri

Dear Dmitri,

Well, I have no theological background!

I didn't go to any seminary - I was spared that experience .

The best theological education we can receive is through the richly meaningful and orthodox liturgical texts of our Eastern Church.

How is the weather down in N'Awlins, Big Guy?

I'm going down there with She Who Must Be Obeyed at the first chance I get and as soon as the money stops flying out the window that will hopefully occur soon after the renos end.

Alex

Way to go Dmitri!!!

Addressing Orthodox Catholic:
As far as being influenced by Evangelical Protestants, I would love to know which branch of this sect gives Mary any consideration at all? Their theology about Mary can be summed up as follows: Gabriel came to visit Mary... Mary said yes to the message... Mary gave birth to Jesus... Mary had other children by Joseph... Mary died...End of Mary.. I do not see anywhere in this theology anything close to what I wrote.

Okay...moving on.

A quote from St. Irenaeus: "Just as the former-that is, Eve--was seduced by the words of an angel so that she turned away from God by disobeying His word, so the latter--Mary--received the good news from an angel's announcement in such a way as to give birth to God by obeying His word; and as the former--Eve--was seduced so that she disobeyed God. the latter--Mary--let herself be convinced to obey God, and so the VIRGIN MARY BECAME THE ADVOCATE OF THE VIRGIN EVE." (Against All Heresies V,19,1)

I did not know St. Irenaeus was an evangelical Protestant, my friend.

And from the article "The New Eve" written by devout Catholic John O"Connell: Early in the history of the Christianity the Fathers of the Church spoke of the Blessed Virgin Mary as the New Eve. St. Irenaeus (that evangelical Protestant) wrote, "It was right and necessary that ADAM BE RESTORED IN CHRIST....THAT EVE BE RESTORED IN MARY, SO THAT A VIRGIN, BECOME ADVOCATE FOR A VIRGIN, MIGHT ERASE AND ABOLISH THE DISOBEDIENCE OF A VIRGIN, BY HER OBEDIENCE AS VIRGIN".

I understand this is a very tough subject with believers. My experience, time after time, is Catholics paying all the attention to Mary, and having little or no devotion time with the Lord. I have to say this: that is spiritual suicide. The apostles asked Jesus how we are to pray, and He responded by beginning with, "Our Father...". Our attention is to be placed on God, offering praise, confession, and petitions in the name of our Lord...this is not evangelical Protestant teaching...this always been taught from the advent of Christianity.

Now don't get me wrong. I have prayed and will pray the Rosary in the future, there is nothing wrong with asking any Christian (living or dead) for prayers of intercession. But there is a huge difference when you start labeling someone a co-redeemer. The Blessed Mother, like us, are co-workers, who are to intercede for others, and share the Good News with the hope of their conversion which will save them from damnation--this has also been taught from the beginning--it is not an invention of the evangelical churches.; but lately, Christians who do not want to leave their comfort zone(s) now begin to think of conversion as being repugnant.

At least evangelical Christians are not cowardly about sharing their faith...good for them!!!!

Walt Metrick

Dear Walt:

I think that this comment sounded like Protestantism:
But I see, in your later post, that you are, in fact, comfortable with extra-bibilical philosophizing.


Quite unlike us, really. She played a awesome, unique role, and is thus a magnificient role model of obedience to God, love of Jesus, and steadfast devotion to Him. Hard to imagine anyone's spiritual death from proclaiming her greatness.

djs

Friends,

I think Walt makes a good point in that devotion to the Theotokos can be overdone to one's spiritual detriment. Fortunately, the Eastern Churches have avoided this problem that affects the Latin Church.

Any devotion paid to the Mother of God, the angels, or saints needs a context in which the praise offered is ultimately directed to the Trinity. The Akathist is a wonderful example of this, the Rosary is another. Sadly, I have seen many Latin devotions in which this was lacking and the focus on the Trinity is lost. The co-redemptrix title is one of these things that stand on shaky theological ground and lack focus on the Trinity, and are ultimatley dangerous.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Walt,

Forgive me for using the evangelical protestant terminology, Friend. Forgive me, it was out of place and uncharitable on my part.

Ultimately, we are called to stick to our own liturgical and theological tradition and that is the sum total of our spiritual experience pertaining to the Mother of God and the Saints.

Alex

Dear Lance,

I would say that a wrong orientation toward devotion to the Theotokos can be bad, but that the Church's own orientation toward the Mother of the Word Incarnate can NEVER, NEVER be spiritually harmful as it always leads us to a greater and deeper relationship to OLGS Jesus Christ.

Even Her title "Theotokos" has always been the Church's "litmus test" of Orthodoxy with respect to the correct theology of the Incarnation.

To deny Her universal meditation is to deny the Communion of Saints. To deny Her divine motherhood is to deny God the Word truly came to earth and became Man. All of her titles contained in the Church's liturgical tradition relate Her to the Incarnation in a way no other person can be.

Her honours depend on the Incarnation and She brings us to Christ as She always holds Him in Her arms to show us how God has blessed Her and through Her all of us.

The icon of the Mother of God holding Her Son is the Icon of the Incarnation. The "Hail Mary" is a prayer in honour of the Incarnation.

A lot of the problems in the Roman Church you mention had to do with imbalances in liturgy and in the development of paraliturgical devotions that went off on their own independent of the official liturgical tradition that was in Latin etc.

The liturgical traditions of the Eastern Church in regard to the Mother of God praise her much more highly than anything our Latin brothers ever developed. And it is all related to Her Son and our Lord.

As Archbishop Fulton Sheen once said, "We shall be very happy at the Last Judgement if the only thing our Lord can find fault with us is that we loved His Mother too much . . ."

Alex

Slava Jesu Krsitu,

Yes, but I still think "co-redemtrix" goes too far. Our Lady has many titles and unless she makes another visit as she did at Lourdes with the Immaculate Conception, I suggest we leave it alone.

Dmitri

Dear Dmitri,

Don't get me wrong.

I would say that the Immaculate Conception and Assumption doctrines could be easily dropped without changing the Church's constant faith in these respects at all!

But I've read in Orthodox books about how the Mother of God "Co-suffered" with Her Son on the Cross.

Don't you just hate such rampant Latinization!

Alex

Perhaps the best way to address the Theotokos' role is to say she was a faithful and willing vessel for God to pour out His Grace through His Son...a little wordy, I know...but what do you think?

Walt

Dear Walt,

That is great!

If I can relate my experience here, which is why I'm such a fanatic about the Mother of God - I say the Rule of the Mother of God daily that the West calls the "Rosary"

I can't imagine a day without it, without meditating on the mysteries of the life, death and Resurrection of our Lord and the role of Mary in His life - and ours.

The Hail Mary prayer brings me into such blissful communion with Her Son!

At the end of it, I'm shouting the Jesus Prayer, the Name of Jesus, I can't stop!

The Rosary and Akathist have drawn me strongly toward the Cross and the Eucharist and the Gospel.

Every time I read about a word Jesus says in the Gospel, I reflect on how God used Mary to form a perfect Body for His Son so He could speak to us, touch us and bring us His Grace through His suffering, death and resurrection.

So if I'm wrong, I never want to be right!

God bless you, servant of Christ!

Alex

Dear Friends of Christ,

If interested I have a brief discussion of this title of the Asdvadzadzeen (Mother of God) from an Armenian perspective. Click on the link and look for the document "The Mother of God in the Armenian and Roman Churches."

http://www.geocities.com/wmwolfe_48044/Articles1.html

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Dear Friend,

Where could one purchase Armenian Icons?

Alex

Dear Alex,

I think icons have more or less fallen into disuse in the Armenian Church. They never were a prominent part of our faith, as I understand it. "Miniatures" on illuminated manuscripts were the avenue in which I've seen the most comparitive representations of traditional Byzantinve (or Eastern Roman) Icons. Armenians deveolped the art of miniatures to a high degree. Yet, Armenians seem to have also spent a lot of effort in carving Icons in stone. I've seen more Armenian Icons on the stone walls of ancient Churches than I have on paper or wood. The Khatchkar (Cross carved in stone) is another example of this interest in carved stone.

From what I've seen, modern Armenians are very tame in their use of images in their personal devotional life. Most Armenians will have a khatchkar replica in their home and/or a Holy Cross but not many Icons or religious pictures. Some Armenians, like the pastor of St. John's Armenian Apostolic Church in Detroit (who is an iconographer and studied under Schmeman and Meyendorff), are working to restore an appreciation of Icons in the Armenian Church. He, Fr. Garabed Kochakian, has just completed a major project of installing large, beautiful mosaics around the inner perimeter of this archetectural masterpiece of Armenian Church. I'm all for this as I have a great love and veneration for holy images.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Link to Soorp Hovhannes (St. John's):

http://www.stjohnsarmenianchurch.org/

[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: Der-Ghazarian ]

Bob King,

I finally got this Kontakion of Theotokos that's usually song on "ordinary" Sundays at a local Antiochian Orthodox Church:

"O undisputed intercessor of Christians, O Mediatrix who is unrejected by the Creator, turn not away from the voice of our petitions though we be sinners. Come to us with aid in time, who cry unto thee in faith, for thou art good, Hasten to us with intercessions, O Theotokos, who didst ever intercede for those who honor thee."

Have a good day.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine