www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Renewal of the Liturgy: An Eastern Novus Ordo?

Dear Robert,

I am afraid I have the sad duty to inform you that as beloved as the altar against the wall is to neo-traditionalist Roman Catholic, the Calvinist Protestant innovation of a free standing altar has totally infected Holy Orthodoxy. Liberalism run amuck in Byzantium!

In seriousness, I would re-assert that the eastward direction is a minor matter and one that was less than universal before VCII.

Axios

Well, just by looking at the number of posts on this august topic I think we can all see why so many Christians, both eastern and western, are drawn to this column; this forum takes the issues of Christ and His Church very seriously and is not willing to see the Head separated from the Body. Deo Gratias!

Robert wrote:

This was due in large part to the efforts of Friedrich Wilhelm III of Prussia to create a consolidated Lutheran/German Reformed church. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that my mother was raised in this tradition and had received little information about the truly catholic roots of the Lutheran Reformation. To her a scholar's robe was the approriate vesture of a Lutheran minister. The heirs to this form of Reformed German Christianity are actually found in the very liberal United Church of Christ.

Sadly, her historical, traditional "catholicity" did not keep the Church of Sweden from becoming increasingly irrelevant to the people of that very socially progressive nation. The State Lutheran Church is almost negligible in its influence. And I would have to say the same about the ELCA. There is a strong liturgical movement among some congregations, but they too have gone the way of accomodation in their positions on womens' ordination, abortion, etc. I've also attended some extremely high-Church Anglican services that couldn't have been more aesthetic and glorious in their ritual and liturgy. Again, it has not saved them from a precipitous decline in belief.

I would agree with you, Robert, that the successor to John Paul II will face some very difficult challenges.


Khrystyna

Dear Johan,

Thank you for your posting. In it you shared valuable information. It again shows your concern for our young people and for our Church. It also expresses your kindness.

It don't think that it will be possible for me to respond as I want due to time constraints today. I will do so as soon as I can.

Thanks for taking the time to respond in the way that you did.

Steve

Dear Robert,

I just had a chance to check out the site for Zion Lutheran in Detroit. Marvelous!! Thanks be to God for those faithful Missouri Synod Lutherans, may their tribe increase.

Khrystyna

Beatus vir, qui timet Dominum!
Blessed is the man, who fears the Lord!

Dear Christine:

I too was amazed! What an amazing development amongst the Missouri Synod Lutherans. They truly have broad shoulders.

Yours in His Love,


Robert

Speaking of the Lutherans, the late Rev. Scott Michael Marincic, also I believe of the Mo. Synod, wanted to reintroduce infant communion, having prepared some very insightful research from Eastern Christian sources but died an untimely death and I don't think any of his recommendations were acted upon.

Also a good friend of mine who is an ex-Lutheran minister now biritual Byzantine/Roman also related to me that Father Alexander Schmemann was very popular in his Lutheran seminary.

Dear Diak, I am not surprised. I read "For the Life of the World" many years ago and became an instant admirer of Father Schmemann.

Khrystyna

Mor Ephrem, I have been searching around on the internet. Sll the versions of the Coptic liturgy that I have found presuppose that the church is oriented on an east/west axis, with the altar sited at the east end. The deacon does several times exhort the congregation to "Look to the East," but I guess this is just for emphasis.

I have not been able to find any information on the liturgy as used by St. Augustine nor of the structure of the church building in Hippo. I do know that some of the churches in North Africa followed the 4th century Constantianian basilica, with the altar located at the west end. If this was true in Hippo, then Augustine's instruction would be evidence that the congregation would actually turn away from the altar for the Eucharistic Prayer. But this is supposition on my part.

Fr Alvin Kimel+

Dear Johan,

I am sorry that it took so long to respond to your comments.

I appreciate the information that you were sharing both from the book and from your own personal experience. It is good to read some witness to the power of our Faith and our Churches to attract our young people.

Some have said that our Church is moribund because of changes. Your testimony suggests that a number of young people have joined their grandparents at the altar celebrating the Eucharist following the tradition expressed in the Tridentine Rite.

That certainly is cause for rejoicing. It is cause for rejoicing also when God calls someone to join a community that worships using the Byzantine Rite or any other Rite, for that matter. It seems to me that all of us who are part of The Body of Christ are enriched by that.

I appreciate also that you will not put down Vatican II anymore. As you know, the Pope and most of our Hierarchy believe that its teaching and the liturgy it initiated were works of the Spirit, too. We understand that He is working in us who celebrate the Eucharist following the tradition expressed through the Liturgy following the "new order" promulgated by Paul VI.

So, based on your testimony, based on what I know of the posters here, and based on what I know of the Roman Church and its growth, it is hard to be defeatest. The Church lives in the Churches and Christ is her Head.

There is much reason for hope in faith and in love.

Thanks again for your explanation and your insights.

Steve

Brother Mor,

I just picked up a copy of The Divine Liturgy of St. Basil The Great and The Evening and Morning Raising of Incense Prayers, made by St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church , Troy ,Michigan at a used book store(3.00) while visiting my brother. I also met and was blessed by a Coptic Orthodox friend of
my brother. I will try to read it in the next day or so to locate your reference.

In Christ,

James

Slava Isusu Christu!

I would like to officially thank Serge for posting my questions on his Blogsite

http://sergesblog.blogspot.com/

I couldn't have been more shocked and flattered at the same time. Hey people who get on this Forum really go places don't they

Albeit my questions were sincere and not meant to stir the teapot or sour the cream.

In Christ our God,


Robert Horvath