www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why are Melkites better than us?

Dear Diak,

Well, I have an Irish aunt!

And, as you know, Irish missionaries came down in their "birinns" to preach to St Olha. Celtic culture first came about in the Carpathians, according to some scholars.

The old Celtic Rite breviary and liturgy is presented nicely on this site, in case you are interested: Celticchristianity.org

God bless and forgive me a sinner!

Alex

David,

I am willing to wager that it was Arcbishop Joseph Tawil, whose courageous leadership did a great deal to remove latinizations and restore authentic Melkite practices. His Christmas encyclical, The Courage to Be Ourselves, is one of the great masterpieces of Eastern Catholic visionary thinking. You can read it online at:

https://www.byzcath.org/news/Melkite/1970-Tawil.html

On another note, I have been researching the history of Vatican II for the past few weeks. As I have been reviewing the day by day debates that occured at the council, one fact clearly came to light: at every crucial juncture, as every important and controversial question was debated, it was the Melkites who took a daring and prophetic role of leadership. Indeed, the history of the Catholic Church was changed by the persistent interventions at the council by Patriarch Maximos IV and Archbishop Elias Zoghby. The Latin bishops were so impressed and moved by their speeches that more often than not they followed the advice of the Melkites!

I am looking forward to seeing you on Saturday!

Anthony

[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Dragani ]

Dear Anthony,

Yes, yes, the Melkites are our heroes . . .

But what about Patriarch Slipyj's stand at the Council in defence of married priests?

I remember how he compared the example of a celibate priest who became a communist and denied the faith, while a married priest received the support of his family to remain faithful.

One problem with the "Byzantinization" of the Ukrainian Church is that there are those who see it as part of "Russification."

It is a sensitivity. Until his death, Fr. Bohdan Lypsky was often referred to as a "Russophile" by Ukie Catholics in Europe and elsewhere.

And this despite his truly heroic defence of his own people in the worst of times.

During the trial and subsequent hanging of Bilas and Danylyshyn, he himself brought Holy Communion to them on the gallows!

Alex

"On another note, I have been researching the history of Vatican II for the past few weeks. As I have been reviewing the day by day debates that occured at the council, one fact clearly came to light: at every crucial juncture, as every important and controversial question was debated, it was the Melkites who took a daring and prophetic role of leadership. Indeed, the history of the Catholic Church was changed by the persistent interventions at the council by Patriarch Maximos IV and Archbishop Elias Zoghby. The Latin bishops were so impressed and moved by their speeches that more often than not they followed the advice of the Melkites!"

Dear Anthony,

Thanks for this reminder!

I was in the major seminary during the council and this information was common knowledge at the time there.

There are many of us Latin Catholics who are aware of our debt to the Eastern Catholic Hierarchs for their immense contributions to the teachings that came from the Council. We remember and we are grateful still to the Patriarch and the other hierarchs. Through their work our patrimony has been restored in a way that could not have been without the Union of the Churches in our communion.

Just a question, do you think that they constitute Byzantinizations of the Latin Church? :rolleyes: Just a jest!

Thanks again.
Steve

[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

I think that part of the reason the Melkites have been reasonably successful at resisting Latinization is that they remain so close to the Antiochian Orthodox Church in Lebanon and Syria. These close ties help to influence what is done. At the same time, priests from here who have vistied their homelands tell us that our American liturgies are much better than those "at home" because we are more aligned with tradition.

That stems, it seems to me, from the desire to retain links to the homeland. The Ukranian/Ruthenian links are not as current and, therefore, are not retained in the same way that the Arab links are held.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Good point about the intervention of Patriarch Josyp, Alex. ALso the intervention by Metropolitan Maxim Hermaniuk on collegiality, its history in the Christian East and the need for the entire Church to return to a more synodal form of government. It was Metropolitan Maxim who threw out the radical proposal in 1963 to remove all of the Roman dicasteries, congregations, etc. and set up a standing Synod of Bishops in Rome. Needless to say that didn't set well with the boys in the red hats in Rome.

I have run into some Melkite Basilian Salvatorians who were as latinized as any Ukrainian/Ruthenian Basilians I have met. :rolleyes:

Fr. Deacon Ed, probably about 1/3 of the priests in our Eparchy are actually from Ukraine. I don't buy the lack of connection thing, in fact I think it's as strong if not stronger with Ukrainian Catholics.

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Dear Diak,

Yes, I agree!

It seems that the adoption of certain Latin practices isn't such a big deal in western Ukraine among BOTH Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

My in-laws brought me a Way of the Cross published by the Ukrainian Orthodox over there.

In the Foreword, they not only praise the devotion but "pray that it is extended to all Orthodox Churches" (sic).

They use 15 Stations, the last one for the Resurrection of Christ and they actually say they hang these around the Church as is done in RC parishes!

I suppose that homeland ties with these Churches aren't going to help the process of greater Easternization here, are they?

Alex

One additional point about the Melkites and their success in staving off the Latinizations: they also have currently - and have had since the Second Vatican Council - a very active and vocal Patriarchate. Nothing like a visble sign of Church unity lead by faithful shepherds who protect, nourish and defend the flock!

I am hopeful that the Byzatine Catholic Church will continue to move in a similar direction.

One question - and I may betray a large degree of naivete here: Why not unify all Byzantine Catholics under a single Patriarchate for North and South America? It seems that there could be opportunities for great synergy in terms of shared resources, both financial and pastoral, and missionary activities. Thoughts?

Peace and all good -

Gordo, sfo

[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: CaelumJR ]

Actually, when reunion comes, the Ukrainian Catholics should place themselves under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Moscow. Right, Alex?

Seriously, the Melkites by and large have it right - JUST DO WHAT THE ORTHODOX DO!

On another note, a North American Patriarchate would be a GREAT idea.

YA Note: how about a common date for Pascha, east and west? Since the Catholics are more flexible about Pascha, perhaps we should just accept the date for Orthodox Pascha outright. I also think it would be a great gesture of goodwill.

Just my $0.02 ($387.45 Canadian).

[ 07-18-2002: Message edited by: NDHoosier ]

Dear NDHoosier,

Yes, it's O.K. for Ukies to be under the omophorion of the Moscow Patriarchate.

As long as they're given out oxygen masks in advance.

Alex

I would definitely like to know more about this. What is the structure of the service.? Would you mind translating one of the prayers just so we non-Ukies could get the an idea of the feel of the service?

As for the "...as is done in RC parishes!" part, the local RC church up the street from me has, after over 20 years' existence, finally hung stations in the main church. However, They are up so high on the wall that only a seven footer could actually gaze at them while doing the devotion. a-a-nd, they were placed on a part of the wall that juts out into the area where the chairs are, so that you could not get close to them anyway. Personllay, I think they are for ornamental purposes only. On the other hand, this church has been so bereft of ornamentation of any kind, that anything at all is an improvement.

... But only if Metropolitan Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz is promoted to Patriarch. :p

Yes, that is true. I have a book, put out by our eparcy, called "Bearers of the Myserties." On page 30 is a photograph of a First Communion class with their priest. He is seated just inside the communion rail. He is dressed in cassock, lace-trimmed surplice and RC-style stole. Beside and behind him are about 10 precious dark-haired children, the girls in their sweet white dresses and veils, the boys in their suits. Flanking the children on either side are the altar boys in their cassocks and surplices. Behind the children is the altar, (very beautiful one, by the way) which is indistinguisable from the stye of altar found in RC churches comtemporary with the photograph. On both sides of the altar are large statues of saints. Clearly visable in the forefront of the phograph are the first 2 rows of the pews. The title of the phograph is "First Communion, St. George Church, June 21, 1931." I wish I had a scanner so y'all could see this. Oh, yes, I just noticed small statues of the Sacred Heart and our Lady on what seem to be high pedestals flanking the altar.

The history of my own parish was pretty rocky in the beginning. Most of our people were happily and comfortably established in the local RC parishes, their children able to take advantage of the fine local RC schools. It took a LOT of wooing to warm them up to the idea of a local Melkite parish. Many of the children of these early members had not even been chrismated. At one point, the pastor had to do a mass chrismation of all these youngsters.

Please do not think I am condemning the age of Latinization: the people and the clergy did what they honestly thought was the good thing to do at the time.


Vicki Williams
Holy Transfiguration Melkite parish
MacLean, VA

Alex,
Do you think the main reasons why some Ukrainian Caths in Ukraine are really embracing Latinizations is because "Eastern" practices are seen as too "Orthodox" which is sadly a common attitude among some?

Peace,
Brian

Dear Vicki,

The Orthodox Way of the Cross I have starts out with the usual Byzantine beginning: "Blessed is our God etc."

Then there is a short reading about the Station to be celebrated, an Our Father, Hail Mary etc. are said, followed by a poetic hymn about the Station.

Following the 15th Station, there is a sermon, an Ektenia and the usual Byzantine ending.

The Stations comes complete with pictures, although it encourages people to go with the Priest, visiting Station after Station around the Church!

Alex