www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Byzantine Vocations

Dear monasticbeginner,

That is all just "jim-dandy."

I am a failed vocation, as you know.

It is easy for me to blame everyone under the sun, including my bishop for what is my own failure.

A failure to keep a focus on the possibility of a vocation, to follow it through.

To struggle with those in the Church who may have differing ideas from you about how your vocation, and vocations in general, should be followed through.

To avoid the temptation to berate church authorities and to be sanctimonious (and I am NOT referring to anyone in particular ON THIS FORUM FYI!).

That just doesn't cut it.

It doesn't cut it with me and it doesn't cut it with others.

We can try to make the road to the altar smoother for people.

But when we come to serve the Lord, we MUST prepare our hearts for temptation and struggle, or so the Scriptures say.

It is hard work, pain, suffering and struggle.

Not everyone who wants to be a Priest, or is told should be a Priest, is ultimately destined to be a Priest.

The road to the Priesthood is strewn with thorns as well as roses.

Personally, I think we should emphasize that we are ALL called by the Lord to serve His Body that is the Church.

We ALL have a vocation to service.

Not just priests!

And today has been an eye-opener for me as well.

Alex

Alex,

Why do you call yourself a a failed vocation? Just because you were not ready at a previous point in time it does mean you can't grow spiritually to the point where you can become a successful vocation. The fat lady ain't sung yet.

Guys,

As you know we are a small Byzantine group in SE WI. I had signed us up for a Ethnic fair at Christmas time, crafts and baked goods. I listed us as Ruthenian. I will provide the ethnic background but also provide a great deal of info about the Church. It is not my intention to focus on ethnicity but we will have contact with a large number of people. We will raise funds for our community but more so raise awareness of the Byzantine Church. BTW I will focus that people of all persuasions do belong and are welcome. To be inclusive I plan to focus on St. Nicholas. I wish I did not have to use and attach it to ethnicity but I can't pass up this opportunity. Media out reach is so expensive. Pray for our success.

Nicky's Baba

Dear Nicky's Baba:

GO GET 'EM!!!!

I think that it's the reality of our Church that we are not only the liturgical and theological reality, but also the food eating, beverage drinking and music dancing folks that we are.

Apropos comments above, I always understand "church" as the people and their collective energies, whether liturgical and sacramental, or gastronomic and artistic. Our Eastern folks have always appreciated the combination of both aspects. Some decry the fact that there are more people at the Lenten dinners or fish-frys or spaghetti suppers than there are at Divine Liturgy. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing. When contraposed to the olden days "sacrament factories" in the RC church, when "everyone went to Mass" but never did another thing, the Eastern perspective of getting together for 'activities', including Divine Liturgy, then we are much healthier for it.

So, cook up the stuff and bake your hearts out -- and let the visitors to the event see not only the interesting foodstuffs, but also the real joy and friendliness that is the Byzantine community. THAT's the way to make converts!!!

Blessings! (And good luck in your efforts!!!)

I think we are circling aroung the answer here, or atleast one of them. COMMUNICATION is the key to anything.

One of the best parts about being here in Boston, is that my Eparchy has a mission here that I have been assigned to. The priest lives near by the seminary, and is able to take advantage of some classes here to keep up to date. But the big plus, is the people see me everyday.

One Sunday, after I had been at the mission of about 6 months, this little old lady who speaks like no English at all, came up to me, took my hand, kissed it, and told me in Romanian, that now I belong to them. They are on this road with me. I wish they would help me with the work on the road, but it is nice to have company.

The message needs to get out. I asked the vocation people here in Boston how many contacts they have each year and how many that translates into for people actually applying to the seminary. Keep in mind there are three full time people here 2 priests, and one secretary, all paid.

They get about 200 people per year interested, out of that, they get about 50 that are real serious, and last year, three applied to the seminary. They communicate constantly with the priests.

I am not sure what the answer is. I do know that God is calling people, married and single, to a vocation. Ask yourself a question. Are you doing everything you can for your church, are you chanting, reading, serving at the altar, cleaning up, teaching religious education, do your churches have bible studies and prayer groups that meet wheather the priest is invilved or not. DO you have vesper services on Saturday night, and services at other times of the year. If we are not doing all of these things, then we are not doing enough.

As far as failed vocations go, I must be a failure also. I spent five years in a Benedictine Monastery, took vows and everything, and then I left. I did not fail, god called me somewhere else, to another type of vocation. The key is to ask yourself, what did I learn form this experience. What did God teach me here.

We all need to communicate. Perhaps the Adminsitrator could contact the Bishops in our respective Eparchies, and ask them who the seminarians are, post their names and e-mail here on this website, with pictures. Ask who the deacon candidates are and do the same thing, ask when the programs being and post that information.

We need to do all we can to make this work. It is not all up to the guy that wears the fancy hat.

Off to write another paper,

From the road,

Peter

I know that this thread is not aimed at Latins - BUT I can't help feeling that we are also to a certain extent having the same problems - that of an apparent lack of Vocations.

For the next 6 years if all goes well, and no students leave our Semninaries during their course our Archdiocese will be able to ordain 1 [yes one] Priest each year.

Now our Archdiocese covers an enormous part of the West of Scotland - OK in your terms of land area etc it's small. We have 17 Deaneries, covering 107 Parishes, Numerous Religious Houses [ I can't honestly count them all quickly . but most Parishes have a religious Community, albeit of perhaps 3 members, within their territory] Schools etc. And yet this year only ONE student started in Seminary - and he is now based in the Spanish Seminary. We are also reaching crisis point - putting it bluntly more priests die than we can replace.

Like you we are saying - what can we do ?? Someone tell us. Our students often have a year long Discernment programme which is run for the whole of Scotland - the prospective Students meet together for a few weekends in the year, develop friendships and keep in touch with each other, as well as the Vocations Directors, their Spiritual Advisors, Parish Priests etc etc. They are screened academically and psychologically and yet some drop out at that stage. They go to Seminary for 6 or 7 years - meet with the Students for the whole of Scotland, and during their years more drop out. Those who go abroad are usually well supported by their friends and Parishes at home - most of them have their own laptops and so can use e-mail to keep in contact. They do Pastoral Work in the Summer in parishes and get more people supporting them - but they still drop out. OK it's far better for them to drop out whilst still in Seminary rather than after Ordination.

So how do we attract young men to the Service of God ? We've tried everything - vocations evenings , individual approaches, Articles , the present students making approaches. No we have not tried a Vocations Icon , but the reason for that is obvious.

I honestly think it comes back to the home background - parents who are willing to raise the possibility of a Vocation with their children and then the parents being willing to support their child during and often after the training. But of course with you, you also need wives to encourage and support their husbands too - and then this also means adequate financial support for a married Priest and his family.

There is no easy solution - but one thing will help :-

PRAYER, PRAYER, PRAYER AND ...........YES MORE PRAYER

Angela

Dear Dr. J--

Why does everything have to be "either/or"? When "Everyone went to Mass" but "never" did "another thing"?? That is a wild generalization. The people that went to Mass then because it was the "social" thing to do are the same people hanging out at spaghetti dinners because it is a "social" thing to do. Either way it's good that they are there, but it doesn't mean they'll ever receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My mother-in-law came to Divine Liturgy with us for 4 months straight once and still comes to our Church's parties. But ask her if she believes that the Bible is true, and she'll usually say they are "nice" stories and that Church is nice becuase the priest is friendly, the parties are good, and "the singing is nice." My father-in-law goes to RC church on Christmas because he thinks the music is basically a free concert!

Do you REALLY think this is better for some? I don't. You relativize Liturgy and Dinners. Liturgy is ten million times more important than a bingo party or a dinner party. The later certainly are tools to build up the community and invite newcomers--believe me, I'm there. But Liturgy is what makes us who we are. We are the Church when we come together in the eschatological eighth day of the Divine Liturgy, and partake of the Holy Body and Blood of Our Savior Jesus Christ. We step out of ourselves and into Heaven. Not so at a fish fry.

As this century progresses, perhaps the only people who are eastern Christians will be those who are by choice. If people want fish fries, they can go to the neighborhood block party. Sad thing is, even those are dying out because television is killing our social activities (I once read an article about that in a political science class. scary).

I don't think the root of your idea--that fellowship is good and for some might be the only way they relate to the community--is bad; however, I think you have taken it to an unhealthy extreme. Perhaps you would like to restate your opinion more clearly in a more moderate way?

In Christ,

anastasios

As far as vocations we are not that big of a church for pootential candidates to be overlooked or lost in the shuffle.For this to happen something's not working right. The married priest candidate situation - too much waiting on it is not not a good thing. Set it up the best they can and work the bugs out as they go along. Just make sure the first group going in realizes they are the trial group.

Anastasios
I think Dr. John was speaking about fellowship after Liturgy,which is common in our Church. That was not done years ago in the Roman Church. Their social activities were more structured and attached to Holy Name or some ladies group. The interaction between people was not in a casual setting. I think our fellowship time after Liturgy allows visitors to ask questions in a relaxed setting and parishioners to maintain contact in the same type setting. I think many ideas that benefit our parishes come out at fellowship were as in a structure group meeting ideas don't flow so freely. What I will be doing on Dec. 7 is basically the same.Since many people don't know what Ruthenian is we should be fielding alot of questions.

Nicky's Baba

"Some decry the fact that there are more people at the Lenten dinners or fish-frys or spaghetti suppers than there are at Divine Liturgy. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing."

Dr. John,

I hope this one never makes it into our parish bulletins! Can you imagine the response?

I agree with the need to be more than mere Mass Factories. Socials DO help since our parishes are so small and it offers opportunities to newcomers to experience our level of interaction rather than the 5,000+ member parish where one can get lost in the crowd. One can't hide too well in most of our parishes.

Anastasios does make a point and maybe your above statement needs clarification?

Why are we Church? The all-you-can-eat fish fries don't make much sense for Byzantine Christians (or Latin ones for that matter) if we are to attend to the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy in a spirit of fasting and prayer on Fridays.

The Divine Liturgy used to include the Agape Meal. Where did it go? Why did the Fathers decide to rid of it and just keep the Liturgical Service?

We can make the mistake in thinking that the social (or socializing) aspect is more important than Mass Factories. This implies that true community happens in parties and pot-luck dinners. But what about the community that comes from Eucharistic Communion? Is this not better? Even bar flies get together at the local pub for fish-fries.

In the end, the Agape got canned. And I am sure that St. John Chrysostom tried often to keep his sermons long enough to prevent the folks from attending the games near the church. Today, I hear the 5-minute sermon being promoted because it is assumed that most people have A.D.D. or don't care. Maybe if we DID have something to say (like actually preaching the Gospel) and do liturgy well (as Administrator suggests) we will realize that true community happens where heaven and earth meet and where the angels sing.

We are taught that the ministry of the deacon is: the Altar first, the Word second, and charity third. Even the Pope has written so in that same order. Interesting since many will think that charity needs to come first before Liturgy. This is a fine assumption and even caring, but remember our Lord who said that we will always have the poor (remember his anointing by the woman at Bethany?) but you will only have me for a short time. This is something for us to contemplate when we prioritize socials over liturgy. Even our litija is taken at the temple porch (or back of the church in the narthex) when food gifts were offered to give to the poor, thus showing that even charity is done IN the context of liturgy.

Consider the relationship between liturgy and socials: In most traditional and conventional protocol, the social or familiar celebration comes AFTER the liturgy. This priority started with the Agape Meal as our precedent. Wedding receptions (and honeymoons) are celebrated AFTER the crowning though conventional culture has been promoting bachelor and bachelorette parties (with strippers and drinking) prior to one's wedding day. Is this how we prepare for our wedding? Personally, I refused to have a bachelor's party, and instead, took my fianc� to a dinner the weekend before to share our last date together as un-married folks.

We can also see how our Western non-religious culture also suggests having X-mas parties BEFORE Christmas. Christians, unlike pagans, celebrate feast days AFTER and not before the feast, hence we don't sing Christmas Carols BEFORE liturgy like they do no the radio (or at the local pub). Note the time when the Twelve Days of Christmas were actually celebrated.

Case in point: My wife's former Latin parish purchased land for their new parish community to build a temple and social hall. The pastor decided that a temple was first to be built. The temple went up and was finally finished AND PAID OFF before they even broke ground for their community hall. Dedication and priority had to be set first before the social thing.

You might be speaking of being MORE THAN while I amd speaking of PRIORITIES.

Joe Thur

I do not agree with Dr. John's apparent placement of the Divine Liturgy and parish fellowship on equal footing.

However, I will say that I have observed a tremendous difference in the nature of socialization between Roman Catholic parishes and the Byzantine Catholic parish I now attend. Coffee and rolls after Mass begets chit-chat, but the social hour (or two, or even three) after Divine Liturgy is social glue. Moreover, the people put effort into it at my parish. It isn't just having doughnuts delivered. People bring real food. I even introduced fleishkuechle and knoephla soup to the pirohi-and-halushki crowd.

I am sure that the smaller congregation has a lot to do with the stronger sense of unity, but there is something more - a lot more!

"fleishkuechle and knoephla soup"

Please explain. Sounds like something that will satisfy my partially German-Prussian taste buds. Is there meat in that knoephla soup?

Is there a possibility in turning those socials into Agape Meals?

Such socials have their own importance as bisantino noted about him being asked about being a deacon at a fish-fry. Look where he is now: a subdeacon heading for the deaconate!

We might be speaking of three problems: (1) asking for something more than making our true social gathering (Heb: synagogue; Gk: synaxis) a mere rubric deroulment, (2) getting and keeping our priorities straight with Eucharistic Communion first (hence our Catholic Communion and the now defunct People of God title), and (3) using those social gatherings to promote tighter-knit parish families (beyond the chit-chat) and scouting out potential ministers.

And, of course, a more diversified offering of food, including those things mentioned above.

Joe

<<mass factories>> Please . I find that offensive

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I've been reading these posts with great interest, especially since the vocation crisis is one that affects "both lungs" of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church in North America (as well as, for that matter, Western Europe).

I wonder, however, whether we haven't inadvertently left out of the discussion what seems to be a rather important factor in the dwindling number of vocations: that we live in a culture that strongly discourages the kind of personal sacrifice a monastic or presbyter, whether married or not, is expected to make � especially the sacrifice of wealth, comfort, status, and autonomy (in the radical sense of "anomie," that is). Interestingly enough, at least in the United States, we are also on the precipice of an impending crisis in secondary education � too many students and too few teachers. This situation may be considered roughly parallel to the issue of vocations, insofar as it also seems to be a consequence of the kinds of "habits of the heart" our society has created.

Communication is certainly critical, second only to the need for prayer. But what should we be communicating? Yes, we need to identify possible vocations, encourage them, let them know how much the Church needs them and that we will support them fully in their journey � all of this can (and should) be done through both regular dialogue with young men and by living the faith in a way that truly radiates God's glory. We must, in a word, make service to the Church look as attractive as it really is (or can be) � which is not to say, however, that we should paint a false portrait that there is no real hard work involved. Maybe we should call this kind of communication "internal," since it focuses on, and works directly through the medium of, the Church Herself.

But at the same time, it seems to me that we must tackle head-on and helmet to helmet (hey, it's football season and God's team � the Steelers, of course � seems to have finally gotten itself on the right track) the cultural and societal assumptions held by the possible vocations themselves, their parents and friends, and the other "external" communities in which they live, work, and play (school, city, soccer team, chess club, etc.). Let's face it, until we as Church recognize that people are products of their environment (at least in part), and make a concerted effort to act on this undeniable fact of all human life, I don't think we in this country will ever enjoy the luxury of turning would-be seminarians away.

The images of health, wealth, beauty, and power propagated by the various print and electronic media in the consumerist West, by many leading academics (consider the raging debate over euthanasia), and by the healthy, wealthy, beautiful, and powerful themselves are ubiquitous and unavoidable. Whether we admit it or not, these images � in reality, these cultural imperatives � have decisively contributed to our identity, to our self-understanding, and to our understanding of others. It is a noble battle we as Christians fight against these forces, but it is one that requires both the loving grace of God and terrific personal exertion. It's not easy. It's sure as hell not fun. And it certainly invites a lot of perplexed looks on the faces of your friends and colleagues (to wit, "You seem so smart, why do you need to miss work to go to church on a Monday?").

The temptation to "conform to this world" (cf. Rom 12.2) confronts all of us, but it is especially pronounced � in my humble opinion, forged in the fires of teaching Eastern Christianity to teenagers for three years � for young men in their late teens and early twenties. How do we communicate to them that much of the world in which they live has simply gotten it wrong: that it may seem fun and rewarding to wear the Ring of Gyges but that it really isn't, because real joy requires effort, sacrifice, and possibly suffering. I don't think Socrates (or anyone else, for that matter) ever provided a knock-down answer to the question "Why is virtue always better than vice?" in a way that would convince the young, especially the young people in our society who are continually distracted by unhealthy images and behaviors, pushed to attain worldly success by any means necessary, and expected "to find themselves" and "just do it."

Communicating to them the need to consider serving the Church requires us to show them that the world "out there," the one in which we all live, has taken the inherent goodness of God's creation and has frequently � though by no means always � turned it to the wrong end. It thus stands in need of transformation. How do we make this clear? It's not enough to say to them, largely because our culture has accepted His widely-reported death, that "God says so." Most young men and women, even the churchgoing, have been told that they are too wise to believe anything so simple.

I've rambled on way too long. I guess my main point boils down to this: how do we create a message that really speaks to young people in our self-interested and increasingly selfish culture? Is it possible to talk about encouraging vocations without also confronting that culture and acknowledging just how "counter-cultural" the laying on of hands is?

In Christ,
Theophilos

And not the "sacramental factories" that Dr. John mentions? I really didn't mean anything by it.

This is as offensive as old advertisements in the U. S. Catholic Directory that referred to large parishes as "plants." The terms only recall a now defunk understanding that was prevelant even in publications. Such was my usage.

I knew a number of priests who referred to the countles number of Masses on Sunday (and Saturday evening) as "working the mill" - another factory/plant cliche.

I apologize if you personally found this offensive without knowing how such manufacturing terminology was used in days past.

Please refer to http://www.stmonica.net/historyb.htm and scroll down to the section, 1923-1949, and read the fourth paragraph.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/smma/hist.htm see the blurb about 1963.

http://www.archden.org/noel/07085.htm see fourth paragraph about Juan Fullana, CR.

http://www.stmichaelschurch-poway.org/history.htm see the 7th paragraph where the the only building lacking to the parish plant was the church hall!

Fleischkuechle (pronounced FLYSH-kee-kla) and knoephla soup (NIFF-la) are traditional foods of Volga and Black Sea Germans, often known as "Germans from Russia". I grew up in western North Dakota, which is LOADED with Germans from Russia (Black Sea group).

Fleischkuechle is essentially a tablespoon of half-beef, half pork meatloaf mix wrapped in buttermilk biscuit dough and deep-fried.

Knoephla soup starts with 3 gallons of water and some heavy biscuit dough. The dough is cut into small dumplings. Boil the water and add chopped vegetables to taste. The only "requirements" for vegetables are diced potatoes and finely chopped onions (I recommend scallions, and lots of them). Add the dumplings and boil until the dumplings swell then shrink. Add 2 pints heavy cream and 1 stick butter. Cook another 5 minutes. Will need salt and pepper, but I don't add it during cooking.

Hungry yet, Alex?

Enjoy!

Anastasios,

you've been reading Karl Rahner's, the Christian of the Future haven't you!

John

Here's an excerpt:

"At that future date there will be Christian or Catholic communities all over the world, though not evenly distributed. Everywhere they will be a little flock, because mankind grows quicker than Christendom and because men will not be Christians by custom and tradition, through institutions and history, or because of the homogeneity of a social milieu and public opinion, but -- leaving out of account the sacred flame of parental example and the intimate sphere of home, family and small groups -- they will be Christians only because of their own act of faith attained in a difficult struggle and perpetually achieved anew. Everywhere will be diaspora and the diaspora will be everywhere."