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Father, Bless!

I am most distressed to hear that they are going to a schismatic church (by "lefreibriate" I assume you meant either SSPX or SSPV). This is most distressing. Is there not an indult church nearby? I suffer through the NO just because I will never attend one of these churches until thye are in union with Rome.

Joe Zollars

Dear Brother Joe Zollars,

In our Archdiocese, a number of Tridentine Churches formally in schism from Rome were established by the Society of Pius X, including a Cathedral while the people attending them, for the most part, thought they were just regular, although Tridentine, Roman parishes returning to the "old ways."

Our Cardinal hit the roof, apparently, when he heard this and immediately granted the indult for Tridentine Masses. The Archdiocese went to some length to publicly explain to people that these churches were not in communion with Rome, and were schismatic in fact.

My friend, Fr. Bohdan Choly of Sts. Cyril and Methodius in St Catharines, Ontario (he has a website) has integrated many Tridentine Catholics in his parish. His site is:

http://www.computan.com/~choly/index.html

(Freel free to write him and ask him about his experiences).

About half, he told me, are now "Byzantine Tridentines."

They not only have adapted to the Byzantine Liturgy, but they have learned the Liturgy in Ukrainian and sing in the Choir!!

They Cross themselves with three fingers, but go to the left first.

I told him to leave them alone about that, since the Copts cross themselves the same way.

He said, "Oh, O.K."

I like to have fun with my friends who are priests.

Maybe it's my way to show my displeasure at not being one myself.

When I was growing up, I used to wear black all the time and carry a bible with me.

My nickname was, "Bible Boy" which I was proud of.

But I guess my being a priest wasn't meant to be . . .sniff . . .

God bless,

Alex

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

>>>But I guess my being a priest wasn't meant to be . . .sniff . . .

God bless,

Alex

Maybe, Maybe not--

I know you said you can't sing, but neither could St. Romanos! I will invoke his intercession for you right now!

My Coptic priest friend cannot sing--he lost his voice, and does a lot of things recitando. And say--you Ukrainians have spoken liturgies... you could just fill in for a parish that has such practices!

In Christ,

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

Alas, the only parishes that have spoken liturgies are Basilian and Redemptorist ones.

I would have to be celibate . . .

Sniff . . .

But thank you for invoking St Romanos for me.

My father was "Roman," and our full Ukrainian surname is "Romanchukevych" (LOL!).

So my name in Ukrainian, with patronym is,

Alexander Romanovych Romanchukevych

And I was born on the feast of St Alexander Romanus, Pope of Rome.

"Rome and roome enough" said Shakespeare.

It makes me feel happy to know that someone of your spiritual and scholarly credentials cares about me . . . sniff . . .

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father,

What an excellent perspective on this issue!

My friend, Fr. Choly, is very devoted to Our Lady of Fatima, but this devotion is a private one.

His "Byzantine Tridentines" (sounds like a type of chewing gum, doesn't it ?) have adapted to the Eastern Rite very well, from what I understand.

They both share the devotion to Fatima, keep it private, and I'm sure they wink at each other when they pass in Church!

He also has the miraculous Icon of Borusiv in his beautiful Church and promotes the Eastern veneration of it.

I think that the Tridentines will settle down when they come to realize that our Church's veneration for the Mother of God really outstrips their own in terms of liturgical and iconographic beauty - or at least so this Biased Byzantine (@Trade Mark by Orthodox Catholic) feels.

Sorry if I feel overly happy today. I really mean to be!

Kissing your right hand, I again humbly implore your gracious blessing,

the truly unworthy,

Alex

Dear Father Vladimir:

I am reminded of the time I was visiting a Ukr. Cath. monastery for Vespers. Two visiting and quite merry looking friars came in and the older of the two did precisely as the monks and seminarians did. He Crossed himself as they did - right to left and venerated the icon. The younger hesitated, not sure what he should do, as he had started to Cross himself in the opposite, Roman manner. The older friar whispered something along the lines of, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do. But, friend, we're not in Rome now, so do as these good brothers do."

Peace and all good, friends!

Dear Annie,

On the subject of the Sign of the Cross, the Latin Church practiced the Sign of the Cross as the Byzantines do it until the fourteenth century.

They crossed themselves with three fingers, to the right, but one time only.

Pope Innocent III, the Pope who received St Francis of Assisi, actually wrote a brief tract defending the three-fingered Sign of the Cross against the use of the whole hand.

We know that St Francis likewise crossed himself using three fingers!

(Haven't I made your day? )

This papal tract was later published in Old Slavonic by Byzantine Catholics in Eastern Europe to remind their members not to give in to Latin pressure on the Sign of the Cross and that Byzantines followed the universal tradition in this, and other, respects.

Alex

Where do you get your facts?

Dear In Communion with the 3rd Rome,

From books and articles - where do you get yours?

The tract itself is in a number of works, including a prayerbook I have from 1893.

Also, Orthodox studies on the Western Rite bear this out abundantly, especially the studies generated by the "Third Rome" under the later Patriarch St. Tikhon of Moscow.

There is a book by Hilarion Ohienko on the Sign of the Cross that contains this tract in Old Slavonic. Now I'm sure you know where the St Vladimir's Institute in Toronto is, right? that is where you'll find it.

Where in Russia do you live? Your English is excellent. Were you employed, perhaps, in the KGB disinformation department?

Alex

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Alex,

Where do I find this reference? I'd like to show this to both my RC and Orthodox friends!

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Dear Edward,

The one that is probably the easiest to get a hold of is in the book, "Khresne Znamenniya" by Metropolitan Hilarion Ohienko.

I've seen it referenced in other works, but it is less of an issue today than it was in the time of the Unia when the Sign of the Cross became a point of debate between Roman and Greek Catholics.

I'll see where else I can find it.

It is quite remarkable!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Are you sure this book isn't just a figment of your over-active imagination?

After all, aren't you the one who thinks that the First Rome (i.e., Rome) is still a see with which you should be in communion? :p

Dear RichC,

Actually, THAT book isn't a figment of my overactive imagination

I came across it in high school and used the reference to illustrate to my Latin Church buddies (who still are) the "proper" way to Cross themselves.

Some of them are now part of a Ukrainian Catholic parish where they do use the three-fingered Sign of the Cross.

Except that they go to the left first.

When I saw this, I shook my head and said, "You guys will just never learn, will you?"

And, with others, I too believe that being in union with Rome is part of the fullness of Orthodoxy!

I'll duck now . . .

Alex

If I'm not mistaken, Alex's point is ratified in the earliest paintings of St. Francis of Assisi.
They show him raising his hand in blessing in the Eastern style over the animals. Several of the other early medieval images (including those in 'illuminated' manuscripts from Italy in the pre-millenial era) show similar Eastern hand positions for blessings. If the priests were blessing in this wise, then what were the layfolk doing? I don't have access to manuscripts right now, but I would suspect that the hands of the layfolks would give a clear indication of the more 'traditional' (=Eastern) style of crossing one's self.

Blessings!