www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization The Ukie Parish of the future

Dear Alex,
We have a Japanese bartender at our Ukie club in Curitiba. He understands Ukie pretty well. Very nice guy in my opinion, especially when he serves me a double for the price of a single shot. Oh... His name is Washington by the way.
Lauro

Alex,

I think your observation about the differences about language focus between the US and Canada are absolutely true - especially in Toronto, which is the polyglot equivalent of NYC a century ago. Canada's less restrictive immigration policies (not a criticism, despite the fact that some Americans seem to think they'll be the means to terrorist destruction of the North American continent) definitely factor into that; we Americans seem to have forgotten that there are few of us whose forebears didn't arrive on a boat from somewhere.

Yes, Eastern Churches are a cultural and ethnic experience and I agree that there are elements of that which are inherent to Eastern spirituality. Does that include the cupolas, the beards, the funny hats? Hmm, probably not, in the greater scheme of things - such externals certainly help to identify us as being "the other Catholics" (or "those Greeks", since in the narrow minds of many Americans, that's who all Orthodox are). However, to be honest, I think we can retain all of those aspects and still be inclusive and welcoming to those who aren't originally of our heritage. (I, for one, am not giving up tabouli, hummus, fahtaya, musaqa'a, or the pirohi of my Slavic brothers and sisters.)

The ultimate divider - the sole factor that potentially excludes many - and isn't easily overcome as "an acquired taste" (no pun or double entendre intended) is language. As one who readily acquired Homeric Greek and Latin, but struggled with French, Arabic (and most other tongues) are beyond me. In the long run, we need not give up our historical liturgical tongues, but we must be willing to supplement them.

Canada may not yet be at this point and likely will not get there in our lifetimes; but, within 2-3 generations, I think it's inevitable. In the meantime, I think it's safe to predict that there will continue to be gradual incursions into the solidarity that once so marked our face as it was presented to the Western world. A good thing? Not necessarily. A reality? Yes.

The important thing, that must not be lost, is our unique spirituality and witness of our faith. If we sacrifice that to become 'mainstream', we do a disservice to ourselves, our Church, and our God.

Many years,

Neil

My "Chervona Kalyna" brother Fr. Dr. Andrij should know better.

Yours,

hal

A few points to consider:

(1) This past week the Boston Globe had a three page spread about the need to close between 25% and 33% of the parishes in the Archdioses. The "Ukrainian language" had nothing do with the closings of the RC churches. But I suspect that some of Ukrainian parishes in North America are being affected by the same factors forcing the RC parishes to close.

(2) You state the Ukrainian language used by Ukrainians in North America "is circa 1935". In fact, it is circa 1945. The French Canadian (Quebecois) I learned in school is circa 1759, however, I'm perfectly well understood when on business in France. The English used by my fellow Americans is...well circa something or another but very well understood in the United Kingdom. My point is: the Europeans will always say the colonials speak an inferior type of language to theirs.

(3) You state that some Ukrainians from Ukraine feel it is perfectly logical to use English in the North America. Well maybe you have met a few - but according to the Ruthenian Church's own web site (history of the church) newly arrived Ruthenians in North America attend Ukrainian churches because of a preference for the use of the Ukrainian language. The Ukrainian language is a unifying force for the church.

Dear Lauro,

We too had an Oriental married priest in one of our parishes up here - spoke Ukrainian without the trace of an accent (of any kind).

Our St John Maximovych, Metropolitan of Tobilsk, translated the Byzantine liturgy into Chineses, but died before he could go into China.

His descendant, St John Maximovych, Archbishop of Shanghai, served the Chinese liturgy and made converts. His Ukrainian style Church still stands in Shanghai and he brought the miraculous Kharkiv icon of "Vziskaniye Pohybshikh" or Redemption of the Lost there too.

And the Ukrainian St Theodore of Smolensk married the Khan's daughter and brought Kyivan missionaries into Asia way back when - by her he had two sons, both of which are canonized Orthodox saints.

And we call oranages "Apelsina" or "Chinese apples" since that is where our people first got them from.

Alex

Dear Neil,

I agree and you put it all so very well.

I agree that the Byzantine "cupola culture" (when I think of a better term, I'll let you know ) could be open to the mainstream for a number of reasons.

However, I'm thinking here primarily of our own Ukie people who want to become mainstream themselves i.e. want to move away from their own ethnic community, cultural identity, what have you.

For them, the cupola already affirms an ethnic identity and something that will 'hold them' from becoming an integral part of the mainstream. Their destination then is the Latin Church, period. If they are Orthodox, then their destination, at least in our community, is the United Church of Canada.

In our parish, we have many who are not Ukrainian or Eastern Catholic whom we have adopted as our own, including a wonderful Filipino family and others.

They are there for many reasons, and sometimes because they have found their home with us.

Perhaps as we ourselves begin to absorb people with different cultural backgrounds into our Church, then there just might be less of an imperative for Ukie mainstream wannabies to 'move out."

I hope so!

Fad saol agat!

Alex

Dear Hal,

And he's related to me by marriage.

I just won't be able to show my face in our Ukrainian community any more for shame, I just know it . . .

Alex

Dear Hritziu,

There's just something special about you that I've always liked, you know . . .

Alex

Alex,

Yes, I agree that those who flee from us - because it's just too conspicuous to be us - are a major problem. It used to be that nuclear family disintigration, increased mobility on the part of the young with resultant moves to outer suburbs or distant cities for job relocation, and intermarriage - outside the national and/or religious community, were the major causes seen in loss of "cradle" congregants. Now, the fact that we are "too" different is a definite factor, as well; and language alone isn't the issue there - it may not be the issue at all.

(Cupola clusters like that of St Joseph's in Chicago might make me want to disassociate myself too :rolleyes: ).

As to this matter, one can only hope for one of those sporadic resurgences of "pride in one's roots", inevitably accompanied by a return to the faith of the fathers (and mothers .

Many years,

Neil

Many interesting points have been made in this thread. The first part of my post is in response to Hritzko�s post.

I agree. Part of the reason for loss of parish membership across all faith groups is simply the changing demographics of our American cities as people continue to move to the newer suburbs as well as migrate south and west. In some places there will be no solution except to close parishes. In others an effective evangelization program can again fill our churches (if we are willing to evangelize to the unchurched in a language they understand).

Newly arrived immigrants tend to seek out faith communities that consist of their own ethnicity. This is completely normal and there is nothing wrong with this. This group needs to be ministered to and it is proper to minister to them.

I disagree that the ethnic language is a unifying force for the Church. It may be a unifying force for the immigrant community. It is not a unifying force for the Church at large. The example of SS Cyril & Methodius of using the vernacular language of the people in worship is one that should be emulated to convert the unchurched people of the Americas to Byzantine Catholic Christianity (and I am using the term �Byzantine� in the broader sense and not meaning it as �Ruthenian�). The Church is called to be far more than just a private club based upon ethnicity.

-

Alex, Lauro and others make some good points about �where the people are at�. It is difficult to minister to the older members who cannot separate ethnicity from faith. In such cases it is best to offer them as much of the old country way alongside the plantings of a new community to take their place when they are gone.

I know that there are many people who will �fight to the death� to keep the ethnicity in a parish (there are so many people who believe that the calling of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, for example, is to preserve and promote the Ukrainian way of life). Such people simply will not see the handwriting on the wall (maybe because they expect it to be in Cyrillic!). I used to get upset at the lost opportunities in these parishes to reach out the local community to evangelize. Recently, however, I have realized that there will be no way to save this type of parish and it will eventually close. That�s OK. Maybe it is time to allow them to close so that we can plant new seedlings elsewhere.

Dear Neil,

Your sociological analysis is quite brilliant and very exciting to read.

Thank you for sharing the wealth of your knowledge with us.

Alex

Dear Administrator,

Thank you for your insights, as always.

But I disagree (surprise! ) that language is the main factor or, as Neil brilliantly put it, even a factor, in some aspects of these processes.

The most vocal Pro-Ukrainian language people in my parish are of the first immigration, who don't speak Ukie - but who have a strong psychological attachment to the language and so insist on it in the liturgy - like Traditional RC's insist on Latin.

And I don't believe that faith and culture can be separated. Culture expresses the faith - there is no other way to get it across but by going to "preach to all nations" (in their languages and via the medium of their cultures).

The Church in our community is an integral unifying force that brings together our way of life - it has been that way for about 1,000 years, have you only just noticed?

To not see this is to not really understand the fullness of the life of the Eastern Churches.

But I know you do see that.

It is just that you (wrongly) believe that our Ukie and other communities are about to collapse on themselves because of weakened cultural and community linkages.

Perhaps where you are.

But not where I am.

In your case, you would have to inculturate Orthodoxy (in communion with Rome) within the American cultural identity and experience.

Good luck!

Now can you go and see what VladCatholic is up to?

Alex

Alex,

Thank you for your post.

I agree that there is a strong psychological attachment by many to the (insert ethnicity here) language.

I can also agree with your statement on faith and culture if I nuance it a bit. Faith and culture are two different things but one always expresses faith through one�s own cultural context. Nothing I have stated indicates otherwise or that it should be different.

Do I believe that the Ukrainian communities are about to collapse because of weakened cultural and community linkages?

Yes, they will collapse if nothing changes (but probably not until after supper!). The cultural links are very strong indeed. The community ones are less strong.

The problem is that the people are leaving ethnic parishes. Your own Ukrainian Catholic Church in Canada has lost roughly half its people in the past 15-20 years (which parallels the experience of the ethnic Byzantine Churches here in the United States). Are you pretending that this is not true?

How imminent is the collapse? Based upon everything I see I estimate that in the United States the Byzantine Catholic Church (Ruthenian), the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church in America, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church (Johnstown) will each need to close between 30-50% of our parishes in the next 10-15 years. These are the parishes that are in the areas of original immigration (Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey, etc.) where the average age of the parishioners is over 70. The equivalent structures in Canada will probably be no more than a half-generation behind us (15 years) unless something is done. The determining factor will be how long the resident priest lives. [Many of our priests are of retirement age but keep serving, as there is no one to replace them.] Ironically, the clinging to the Ukrainian ethnicity might help those communities survive a few more years since they would be more accepting of a priest from Ukraine. Such a move would not, however, build up parishes unless a fresh emigration from Ukraine is expected.

Do you, by chance, have data that shows that the average age of the Ukrainian parishes in Canada is closer to 20 than 70? And that births outnumber deaths? If you do then I am all ears and would love to be proved incorrect.

I do agree that we need to inculturate Orthodoxy into the America ethos.

I seem to remember the Greeks believing those silly Slavs could never become Orthodox unless they first became Greeks. But look what the Slavs did with Orthodoxy! I think the same is possible with every culture.

Admin