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Dear Ality,

Personally, I don't see the bringing in of Redemptorists as bishops as a way to "balance" the Basilian factor etc.

They have the same issues as the Basilians. The Studites are a completely different matter and that should really be our major religious Order, in my view.

While one may argue whether having Eastern Rite branches of Roman Catholic religious orders in our Church is a good thing, the Monks of St Basil are our original religious Order who suffered the blows of several reformations throughout their history by the Jesuits.

Members of the Polish aristocracy also seemed to like entering this Order!

But in the 20th century, the Basilians followed in the footsteps of Met. Andrew Sheptytsky, himself a Basilian, although there is always room for Eastern improvement, as Diak said!

The fact is that most Orthodox monks follow the Rules of St Basil.

The Basilians could begin by studying the Studites and returning to the sources of Eastern monasticism.

St Josaphat was from among their number and he was very scrupulous about observing the Eastern traditions.

As for Portuguese in the liturgy, I suppose this must be, just as with English.

However, I'm not looking at it as a liturgist, since I'm no liturgist.

Sociologically or what have you, if the Ukrainian Church in Brazil or any where else where Roman CAtholicism is a strong cultural force, and is under heavy Latinist influence, then using the language of the Latin Catholic majority is just one more symbolic surrender to it.

The maintenance of our language in the liturgy has consistently been an important socio-cultural factor in maintaining our identity as Ukrainians AND as Eastern Catholics.

The same may or may not be true of other groups. I believe it is with ours.

Alex

Dear Alex,
The Portuguese language is being used on Liturgies on Saturday evenings. Basically the youth are attending these liturgies. I have nothing against having the Holy Liturgy in Portuguese as long as it's a seperate Liturgy.
I believe that if the youth start to understand the Liturgy more than it's OK,and I also believe that in time these same youth will start to sing in the Ukrainian language because it's much nicer.
What I am really against is the use of instruments in our church and the lack of interest to bring back the iconostasis.
The use of a three bar cross really is a no no in our community. The relationship with the Latins is really strong especially with the youth and that's what I fear. The youth have not been, and aren't in the majority (90%) instructed in Byzantine spirituality.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Well, I wasn't going to suggest that one language was nicer than the other .

The use of English in the liturgy "up here" is much less "dangerous" since English doesn't come with a cultural identity as does Portuguese and other languages.

And allow me to swoon romantic here.

As Taras Shevchenko said, "Our language, our word - whosoever forgets you has not a heart in their chest, but a stone!"

Alex

Couple of comments.

Alex said, "The use of Portuguese in our Liturgy doesn't help matters either (is it widespread in Brazil?). "

Isn't it proper for our Liturgies to be done in the vernacular?

This is something that has bothered me about the Tridentine Catholics we are discussing in another thread.

What good is a liturgy if you can't understand a word being said?

Don't get me wrong, I am not against the use of Latin, Church Slavonic, Arabic, or Greek, I am just against their exclusive use.. I like them to be used along with English.

Again, we come to the "magical" language thing.

Lauro said, "The Portuguese language is being used on Liturgies on Saturday evenings" and "What I am really against is the use of instruments in our church and the lack of interest to bring back the iconostasis."

This concerns me more than the language used.

Isn't it against our traditions to have a Saturday evening Liturgy and instruments? And there should be an iconostasis, otherwise the Liturgy just doesn't look right.

As for this comment, "I have nothing against having the Holy Liturgy in Portuguese as long as it's a seperate Liturgy."

Why must it be a seperate Liturgy? The Melkite Church I attend does the Liturgy in English with some parts in Arabic and some in Greek, it is wonderful. In Pittsburgh I have attened Liturgies that mix English with Church Slavonic.

Alex then said, "The use of English in the liturgy "up here" is much less "dangerous" since English doesn't come with a cultural identity as does Portuguese and other languages."

Now I know we already disagree on the cultural thing but by this statement I take it that you see no value in any other cultural identity? I know it is the Ukranian Catholic Church but at some point in any country other than the Ukraine the cultural identity will be gone.


David

[ 06-13-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear David,

You misunderstand me, my Friend!

Here I'm speaking totally in terms of maintaining an Eastern Catholic identity.

And I'm looking at the dynamic between a minority church (Ukie Cath'lics) and the majority (RC's of Brazil).

In my family I have members from the Ukrainian, Polish, Romanian, Lithuanian, Scottish, Italian, French, German and Russia cultural groups.

And I love them all. My Ph.D. was on multiculturalism, to boot. You say I see no value in any other culture? I am truly wounded by that comment . . .

I'm trying to understand the different CULTURAL symbols by which that identity is maintained in THAT particular context.

The use of Portuguese in the liturgy, while understandable and even necessary (a pastoral call), can ALSO be seen as a force that maintains the two Churches in a culturally undifferentiated state.

And that can truly be dangerous, as people will see very little that is distinctive between the Churches thereby resulting in a greater pull toward the majority Church i.e. Roman Catholic.

This exists in North America as well with people who "lose the language" becoming mainstream RC.

The idea that if the Eastern Churches had English liturgies, the exodus wouldn't occur is something on which the jury is still out.

Even with English liturgies, the loss of the ethnic language and traditions also often means, at least in our context, the loss of a direct connection with the Church. This is part of a wider process of assimilation with the mainstream of which language is but a symptom.

There is nothing wrong with Portuguese in the liturgy.

But within a certain context, such as that in Brazil, the use of Portuguese simply helps maintain the notion that "We are all CAtholics after all."

Alex

[ 06-13-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

I think that the mixture of two languages in one liturgy seems to be a little confusing. When I attend a liturgy in Ukrainian for some reason the atmosphere is different from a liturgy celebrated in Portuguese. It's not that one is better than the other but something happens. It's also very strange to hear Ukrainian Liturgical music being translated into Portuguese it just doesn't match and you end up cutting out or adding some notes from the original composition because of the syllables that don't add up correctly.
There is another important point that we should consider about languages, for example: In Brazil there is a very big colony of Polish immigrants. There are supposed to be more Polish parishes than Ukrainian for example, but the Polish church did give any importance to celebrating their masses in Polish and now in the city that I live in there is only one church that celebrates mass in Polish and only on Sunday morning. The rest of the Polish churches have become "Brazilian". I believe that they have lost a lot with not maintaining their language during church services. The Poles look at the Ukrainians with admiration and many of them are as well jealous because up until recently we have maintained our Ukrainian language at church. What I'm afraid of is that with the introduction of the Portuguese language and the slowly but surely process of latinization, we don't end up in the same boat as the Poles.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Yes, the culture, language and rite are all interrelated with one another and they support the Eastern Catholic identity.

I was not trying to say that Ukrainian was better than any other culture (it's up there, but it's not better ).

David accused me of ethnic exclusivism and phyletism . . . sniff . . .

I attended a Slovenian funeral once for a dear friend.

At the end, as no one was going to say anything, I spoke about him at some length in, yes, Ukrainian.

Afterwards, at the "tryzna" I was approached and thanked by many who said they could understand what I was saying and said how much they admired the Ukies for training their young members in their culture and language.

But I did make mention of Sts. Cyril and Methodius and then prayed in Church Slavonic in the end.

Aren't I nice?

Alex

In my own circumstances, we have one priest for three parishes which draw parishoners from four different states. We have both new American converts and native Ukrainians at the Liturgy. A mixed Ukrainian-English liturgy has always been the economia approach to the language situation, and has worked fairly well (we also still occasionally use some Slavonic). Not to say that is the ideal situation, but that is what we have to work with. The use of some Ukrainian in the liturgy helps keep the connection of heritage extant and I think even the non-Ukrainians would be disappointed if no Ukrainian or Slavonic were to be used. As a cantor I have no intention of not singing the Slavonic irmosi for feast days nor eliminating some beautiful Ukrainian hymns and settings of propers.

Alex, I have to disagree with you somewhat on the issue of the Redemptorists...I think of Michael Koltun and Petro Stasiuk currently serving who are some of the more "vostochne" bishops...Bishop Stasiuk was the head and driving force of the patriarchal catechetical commission who promulgated the "Catechetical Directory of the Ukrainian Catholic Church" back in 2000 which is an absolute gem of Eastern spirituality with such powerful statements like"Deification (Theosis) is the goal of human life" (Article 51). It doesn't get much more Eastern than that.

And of blessed memory the hero +Mykola Charntestky. How many other UGCC bishops of the 30s have you seen in full klobuk? We have a picture of Blessed Mykola Charnetsky on our refrigerator from the 30s in a magnificent golden sakkos and omophor and all of our Orthodox friends take him for some St. Petersburg bishop when they see that picture.

Also +Volodymyr Sterniuk of blessed memory, who courageously lead our church in Ukraine from the underground; +Vasyl Velychkovsky, others...and don't forget the brilliant interventions of Metropolitan Maxim Hermaniuk at Vatican II for the Eastern concept of collegiality as it pertains to the governance of the Eastern churches.

I agree in principle that the paramonastics are a straight borrowing from the Latins, but while some have been staunchly Latinized others have made some significant positive contributions to our Church as well.

Goodness! So much to comment on . . .

my point is that because the Basilians answer to Rome and not our Patriarch, they are kinda like an autonomous church in their own rite.

My theory is that this displeases our church leadership and they would like to get the Basilians and all their money under their control (The basilians are by far the wealthiest entity of our Church). So until they get in line, they don't get as many bishop seats. That's all.

Now for the sub topic:

Our church is more than a language and culture, it is a universal Church. We will have to come to grips that she cannot be an ethnic museum if we want it to survive and be vital. Eventually it will have to adapt culutrally and "change" somewhat to remain living. It will always be Ukrainian in Ukraine, but that will not be the case in every other country. The kids go to portugese Liturgy because that is their language and their reality. Sure they can learn to speak Ukrainian and this should be encouraged but Brazil is not going to become Ukraine. Forgive me, if I sound abrasive and demeaning. Throw in Ukrainian for all the thrice repeated hymns and for some ektenias. Their is no way the church could become a Latin Church without the willingness of our leadership. Poles are Roman as are Brazilians. That is easy to see, but with our rite and traditions, if you teach it and support it, it will remain. This is a problem of latinization by the leadership of the churches. You have to know when to put your foot down in a charitable way.

Our churches are dying becasue they are not engaged in the culture they are living in. Ukraine the only exception. In the diaspora, our churches are Ukrainian Museums, mostly, and they do not engage the culture they live in which alienates their membership as they grow and settle in other countries. Language keeps the Church tied to Ukraine and likewise blocks the diaspora culture out. As our faithful are born and raised in the diaspora country, why are we suprised that many of them walk away from the whole Ukie thing? They are not Ukrainians, but descendants of Ukrainians.

Many of our churches are more concerned with giving money to a Ukrainian orphanage than to an orphanage in their own community! That is sad to me. Help out your own community too! We live dualistic lives and as a result, many people leave.

It would be a shame if we did not take hold of the opportunity the Holy Spirit has given us to bring people to the Kyivan Church for their salvation when HE scattered us out of Ukraine and across the world. We are now an international Church, let's start acting like one, lest we lose the opportunity that will ultimately allow us all to be better Ukrainians . . . see if you can figure that out????????????????????????????

[ 06-14-2002: Message edited by: ALity ]

Dear Ality,
Once again I would like to point out that I'm not against the usage of different languages for the Liturgy.If the Liturgy begins in Ukrainian it should end in Ukrainian and if the Liturgy beggins in Portuguese, English, Swahili etc., it should remain so until the end. The point I'm trying to make is that if anyone who wants to attend the liturgy only in the Ukrainian language, he or she should be given this option,and if anyone wants to attend the Liturgy in another language he or she should also be respected but another liturgy. I believe that the reason for celebrating the Liturgy in another language is because people do not understand the ethnic language of the church, correct me if I am wrong.
So what's the use of a Liturgy being celebrated 50% Ukrainian and 50% Portuguese or English, Swahili etc. This means that most members will participate in only 50% of the celebration.
The problem is latinization or let's say adaptation to the culture of different countries in the diaspora. There is no need what so ever in changing the milinar traditions of the Byzantine rite. There is a need to adapt the sermons of the priests to the social difficulties of modern times. There is a need for our churches to start educating our youth about our traditions inside Byzantine spirituality if the youth wants to use guitars or organs to praise God they should be welcome todo so after or before the Devine Liturgy. What's a Parish Hall for anyway?
God Bless,
Lauro

What "Horologion" do you mean?

Sincerely,

subdeacon Peter

Dear Piotr,

I once bought a copy of his "Molitvoslov" from our Basilian publishing house here.

It was a kind of Breviary, well translated and completely user friendly.

I understand it is out of print.

Alex

So you meant the Basilian "Molytvoslov" (first
edition of 1990, Rome-Toronto, then reprinted in Ukraine)? Well, this book's design is good, Ukrainian language of translation...maybe too,
but the rest. Haven't you noticed how they
censored our Liturgy of the Hours?!

sincerely,
subdeacon Peter

Dear Peter,

Yes, I have!

And do you mean to say the Basilians are Latinizers?

Since when?

But that isn't the book I'm referring to.

It was first printed in the sixties.

Alex

[ 06-14-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]