www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission

Al, indeed a good, thought-provoking post.

Wolfgang, we did a lot of that to ourselves. Sure, there were the Bishop Irelands out there. But there were also amazingly latinized bishops in our church who discarded official books and directives even from Rome in regard to our liturgical traditions. In the process we had several generations of almost totally uncatechized kids move through the parishes.

In fact Rome since Vatican II has exhorted us to clean house and get back to the authentic tradition (actually since Leo XIII).

But what Al describes still happens - even out here in the bojacks. I was called by the local Latin judicial vicar a couple of years ago about an overzealous confirmation teacher who was trying to get a kid confirmed because "everyone in her class was doing it".

Thank God the judicial vicar asked some questions and then contacted me - because frankly the parents didn't seem to notice or care.

They didn't even realize their child had already been confirmed until I had them find the certificate and pointed it out to them (as well as First Communion, but I was too late on that one).

It was quite as you described - the father was baptized BC, the wife Latin, they had the kids baptized in the Pennsylvanian parish of his parents/grandparents to keep the family peace - thinking it was just a baptism like the RCs.

Out here I must say in general the RCs are very welcoming - and in the case I mentioned above it was the Latin judicial vicar who knew it wasn't kosher while the parents would have said nothing.
FDD

A belated thanks for the information about the St.Louis Mission....I have to chuckle somewhat---Divine Liturgy only an hour long....with rosary and devoitions to St. Therese..hmmm. You need to understand where my deart daughter is coming from!
We belong to an EC mission where she goes on most Sundays to Divine LIturgy preceded by Matins--so she (being part of the choir, mind) stands and sings in church for, oh, nearly 4 hours on a Sunday morning.
As devoted as she is to Our blessed Theotokos and to St. Therese, those particular devotions are not a part of the eastern liturgical traditions. They are wonderful devotions, indeed, but there is so much to cherish and foster in the Eastern traditions that I wonder why folks feel the need to supplant eastern spiritual traditions with western devotions?
Anyway, what she will be looking for is a truly Eastern Catholic parish (and if you are looking for a singer, cantor she'll fit right in!).
I will definitly put her in touch with you!
Blessings
Alice

Alice:

There is a UGCC Church within a mile or two, so you may want to check with those folks. I think they are straight-laced when it comes to Slavic traditions. I am not even sure if they use English. You will need to check with them.

On the other hand, the BCCA only has a Mission in St. Louis, thus the rosary and the devotion to St. Therese, the patron Saint of Missions. The Mission is also multi-ethnic and multi-cultural. It is slowly developing American traditions pursuant to Metropolitan Judson's instructions in 1999 for BCCA Churches.

That's great for "converts" but we indigenous "Greek Catholics" will hold strong to our authentic liturgical heritage and will do everything in our means to proliferate and preserve the use of Subcarpathian-Rus' Prostopinije and the occassional use of Prostopinije in the Church Slavonic original settings. You'd be surprised how many Roman Catholic converts to Byzantine Catholicism love to here liturgical parts and hymns sung in the "old-fashioned" Church Slavonic language!

S'Bohom!

Ungcsertezs

That is the beauty of diversity. I support it 100%.

The problem is when it gets to the mix and match stage - that's not good

"On the other hand, the BCCA only has a Mission in St. Louis, thus the rosary and the devotion to St. Therese, the patron Saint of Missions. The Mission is also multi-ethnic and multi-cultural. It is slowly developing American traditions pursuant to Metropolitan Judson's instructions in 1999 for BCCA Churches."

I think you have a serious misunderstanding of the late Metropolitan's instructions. He more than any BC bishop before him sought to restore our authentic traditions: including infant Communion, Presantified Liturgies during Lent, restoration of Vespers and Matins, etc.

If you really want to to follow his instruction you could start by helping to introduce your mission to Matins or Third Hour before Liturgy and the Akathist to the Mother of God as a traditional Byzantine Marian devotion, or a Moleben to St. Therese as devotion to this great saint in a Byzantine context.

The option to be true to Byzantine tradition is always there, one simply has to choose to do it.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I think that for a lot of people like us who came to the east after a long process of discernment we can appreciate the authentic praxis, and the reasons behind it. I like to think we have as great a commitment to it as those who were blessed with the tradition from their earliest days in their mothers' arms.

I am very reluctant to tamper with the authentic spirituality and practice, it grows right out of the theology like a beautiful flower on the stem. It is like medicine for this post-Christian culture, I wish more people could see it.

Even for missions it should be the goal to bring the eastern Light of Faith to the culture, not merely another liturgical option. Of course for those in missions this is not always possible at first, for missions we could call it an ideal to strive for.

Byzantine spirituality (may I use the term?) is a 24/7 life for those who embrace it. When we change the prayers, introduce new devotions and ignore some others we adopt new understandings and change the expectations, it risks undercutting the great gift Byzantine spirituality can be for moderns.

I believe Byzantine Spirituality is differentiated for a reason, if it loses that reason there is no point in working so hard to preserve it or promote it. Why preserve the institution that has lost it's meaning?

+T+
Michael

I find Michael's comments very interesting

A good few years back, before I really realised that one day I was going to have to go East , a very wise person made a comment online one day - the topic had been the wisdom of an RC taking on the praxis of the Eastern Churches. The comment stayed with me - in the back of my mind.

What he said was - that in his mind it was OK to use Eastern prayers and attend Services but once you looked at things and realised that your praxis was in fact over 50% Eastern - then you really should draw back and think hard - from that point he felt you had to make a decision as to which way you were being called.It was not possible to be genuinely both East and West - you should make the decision as to where you should be - and then STICK with it.

You cannot be a mix and match person - you are one thing or the other.

This is in many ways why the Latin Church has its problems now - people have acquired this mix and match habit - a bit of this and a bit of that - then they think that the other will go better with this - and so it goes on. In the end you are nothing - you have no real identity.

This is one reason why I do worry about more RC devotions being brought into the Church , we are more or less stuck with some things till they die out - but we should not be introducing new things which do not belong - we have our own prayers - they should be used - though I do understand that not all Parishes are using them. We have our own traditions - and these should not be changed without good reason.

All this of course is really why I eventually realised that I had to change - I needed to know WHO i was and WHERE I belonged.

I do hope this ramble makes sense

Deacon Lance:

Thank you for your input. You should realize that the Archdiocese of St. Louis has been kind enough to let our little Mission use one of its Perpetual Adoration Chapels for one hour. We barely have enough time to set up the altars, icons, incense, candles, etc., pray the Rosary, say a thirty second Novena to the Little Flower, and then have the Divine Liturgy. The Deaf Catholics get to use the Chapel after us.

Maybe some day we will have our own building and a priest, and will have more time for the Eastern traditions. In the meantime, one makes do as best one can.

Your suggestions probably should be made to someone with authority to implement them: Metropolitan Basil of the ArchEparchy of Pittsburgh, or Bishop John of the Eparchy of Parma. I am the proverbial low man on the totem pole.

If your parish has a few hundred dollars to spare, we could put the money to good use by repairing some of the icons and getting new prayer books.

Someday, if it is the will of Jesus, we may have a parish which resembles St. Therese of Lisieux Byzantine Catholic Church in St. Petersburg, FL.

I strongly recommend that you check out St. Therese of Lisieux Byzantine Catholic Church. See for yourself the wonderful gifts bestowed on that parish by the Little Flower, as she continues to spread roses on earth according to the will of Jesus. The parish is in the Eparchy of Passaic.

Maybe your parish could even use a rose or two from the Heavenly Gardens. All you have to do is ask her. Surely, you have time for a thirty second prayer to ask that St. Therese send you a rose. Matthew 26:40.

A rose from the Heavenly Gardens is a very powerful gift.

JP

Hesychios and Our Lady's slave of love:

The same request is made to you that was just made to the good Deacon. Can you spare a few hundred dollars?

The Mission's address in on the website of the Byzantine Catholic Church in America. Just click on Eparchy of Parma, and then click on St. Louis when you see the map.

JP

Yes but in the time it takes to say a Rosary, one could say the Akathist(sp?) hymn and maybe even still have time for your novena. I just feel that each particular Church needs to retain their traditions.

well said

GMcnabb:

Apparently, none of the Byzantine Catholics in St. Louis have heard about this Akathist to which you refer, or for some reason they have not mentioned it to the Western Christians who regularly attend the Divine Liturgy. I say Western Christian instead of Roman Catholic because one Lutheran attends every week, although he cannot receive Communion.

Perhaps other Eastern Catholic Churches could help us have a Deacon or a Sub-Deacon (I think that is what he is called) so we can learn about this Akathist.

Why the hostility to the Rosary? The history is that it started in the East, made its way to Ireland via some Eastern monks, and then made its way to Western Europe from Ireland.

I believe the Rosary was originally called 150 Angelic Salutations in Eastern monasteries. Therefore, I find it hard to understand why Eastern Catholics are not welcoming one of the oldest Eastern prayers with open arms.

Why the hostility to St. Therese? She is busy "spending her Heaven doing good on Earth", yet is being constantly attacked by other Christians. She always did want to be a martyr in Russia or Southeast Asia, so perhaps Jesus is granting her wish.

I can only assume that you have not read Story of a Soul. Warning: Anyone who reads the autobiography of this little French nun will learn about her "Little Way" to Heaven, and may become addicted to the "Science of Love".

St. Therese is the patron Saint of all Catholic missions, East and West. Indeed, Theresian theology is a lot closer to that of the Eastern Catholic Churches than to that of the Roman Catholic Church.

Think of the shower of roses from the Heavenly Gardens if every Church, East and West, Catholic and Orthodox, would simply ask her once a week for a rose, or even a violet or a daisy.

I am starting a new Novena tomorrow morning. I will ask the Little Flower to intercede with Jesus on behalf of all of the Eastern Churches, Catholic and Orthodox.

God's will shall be done. Acts 5:38-39.

JP

No body is showing hostility to the saint. We are simply saying a Byzantine Catholic church should not have so many western influences. Clearly the Rosary is a western Devotion, in the east the prayer bead equivalent is a rope with many knots on it which the Jesus prayer is said on each knot.

Also traditionally Byzantine churches say Matins before the Divine Liturgy. Saying the Rosary and novenas are western devotions. Different rites aren't supposed to intermingle. The Popes have been calling for this since the 1800s or earlier. Latinizations should not enter into the Eastern rite churches. Especially in this day and age where the Latin Church has adopted Protestant, neo pagen, and new age type practices(but that is for another forum lol... not a byzantine one).

A byzantine mission shouldn't go into a city and pick up latin practices because the parishoners are mainly latins, it should go in and show people its heritage, what makes it different and special in the Catholic Church. Not adopting so it can fit in, but allowing its own spirituality to flourish.