I've heard from some Latin friends, and even read on the Western Rite Orthodox webpage, that the (Traditional) Roman Rite is the oldest rite of the Church still in use today.

Father Adrian Fortescue, an expert liturgist, said:

Additionally, he said: So, apparently it is "a given" that the Roman Rite is older than any of the Eastern liturgies still in use.

Now before anyone denounces this as "Latin triumphalism," I'd like to know exactly when did the Eastern liturgies used today (St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, etc.) develop?

Thanks.

Logos Teen

Latin Trumphalist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


just HAD to say it

LOL!

Coming from so friendly and fair-handed an Orthodox as you, Brian, I just can't buy it!

Logos Teen

Shlomo,
The above is very funny since the Roman Rite developed out of the Syriac and Greek ones. Up until the 400's the Liturgy in Rome was done in Greek.

Here is what Fr. Sawyer (a Maronite Priest) has to say.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

The Liturgy

The Maronite Liturgy is one of the oldest in the Catholic Church. St. Peter and other Apostles brought the liturgy of the Last Supper to Antioch where it developed in Greek and Syriac concurrently. The early Antioch liturgy is the basis of the Maronite Liturgy.

The first thing you will notice is the layout of the church itself.

There is a platform extending from the altar, call a bema.

The early churches were former synagogues, and the bema was the raised platform on which the elders stood and read scripture. You will also notice the richness of the priestly vestments. The design of the Maronite vestments is indigenous to the Holy Land.

The priest and deacon sit at the end of the bema facing the altar rather than presiding over the congregation. The semicircular seating arrangement dates back to the two(2) monastic choirs of the early church. It encourgages the congregation to be participants in the liturgy, rather than spectators.

The liturgy is throughout a dialogue between the people and the priest. The priest serves as the prayer leader in much the same way as Moses served the Israelites. The congregation stands or sits during the liturgy, as the liturgy is chanted back and forth between the priest and the congregation. In Eastern Catholic Churches, kneeling is done on Pentecost, in private prayer and can be done during Confession (Reconciliation).

The Maronite liturgy begins with calling on God's mercy, whereas the Latin Rite liturgy begins with "let us call to mind our sins."

We also acknowledge our sinfulness, however greater stress is laid on God's mercy. As one prayer says,

Yours mercy, O Lord, is greater than the weight of the mountains...

The Trisagion (Qadeeshat Aloho) is the first prayer that is sign in Aramaic, and it is sung three times in honor of the Holy Trinity. It is normally sung facing East.

The sign of peace is also different form the Latin Rite. The priest kisses the altar, places his hands on the chalice, then passes God's peace to the deacon, who then gives it to the acolyte, who passes it to the first person in the pews, who passes it to the next person, and so on. Very rich indeed!

The Consecration is sung in Aramaic, the everyday language of our Lord. the Blessed Mother, and the Apostles. It is the closest we come to the Lord's actual words at the Last Supper.

Throughout the liturgy, the priest will bless the congregation using the handcross, the Gospel, and the Eucharist itself, both before and after the Communion. Holy Communion is given only by intinction.

There is no Communion in the hand and there are no Eucharistic ministers.

(Only the bishop, the priest, the deacon or the subdeacon offer communion).

It is done with the words, "The servant of God ... receives the Body and Blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life."

The Maronite Rite has over eighty(80) Euchristic Prayers, called Anaphorae. Most were composed by different saints, including St. James (the oldest prayer), the Apostles, St. Peter, St. Sixtus and St. Basil.

The prayers throughout the liturgy are full of Biblical imagery. The story of salvation is told over and over again; and, each liturgy is a short course in theology, using spiritual poetry to give praise, honor and tanksgiving for God's mercy and forgiveness, and for His constant love for us no matter what!

A Roman Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole.

The Holy Father encourages Roman Catholics to visit the Eastern Catholic churches, although Eastern Catholics are discourged from going to Roman parishes, as it is the will of Rome that Eastern Catholic retain their rich heritage and support their own parishes.

Vatican II even went so far as to say that if any Eastern Catholics have fallen away from the Eastern Churches out of time or neglect, they should take positive pains to return to their heritage.

Eastern Catholics who attend a Roman parish because there is no Eastern parish for them to attend still remain Eastern Catholics of their own particular rite.

Fr. Dr. Donald J. Sawyer, D.Min.

Yuhannon,

Doesn't the Maronite Church use a kind of "Novus Ordo-ized" Qurbono now?

By the way, I'd really like to visit the Maronite parish, which is about 1.25 ours away. How long is the average Sunday Qurbono?

Logos Teen

I was always under the impression that the oldest Liturgy still practiced in modern times is the Liturgy of Addai and Mari in the Assyrian Church of the East.

Dave

Uh, don't they all trace their roots to the Last Supper?

Daniel,

At least the second half of the liturgy. The first half traces its roots back to the synagogue service.

Joe

Here is a interesting article:

http://romanliturgy.net/gamber.html

The Maronite Liturgy is indeed beautiful and spiritual.

I have little interest in the New Order Roman Rite.


james

I have some difficulty with Dr. Fortescue's analysis considering one of the purposes of the Council of Trent and the intention of Quo Primum was to codify and reduce innovation in the Roman Rite.

If the Roman Rite was so archaic and already completely consistent why would St. Pius V have need for the language of Quo Primum, as 1570 is pretty late in the game?

And even Quo Primum didn't hold in the Roman Rite, as the second confiteor, second absolution, Leonine prayers, etc. were appended well after Quo Primum.

I believe Chtec is correct here, but I suppose it depends on what criteria we're going to use to judge these things.

Is the criteria here supposed to be when the earliest form of the liturgy was evident or the earliest point when it stopped developing?

I think a strong argument can be made that the liturgical practices of the apostles were somewhat eclectic. I think they probably ad libbed a bit. Formal instruction on how to do a liturgy would have been initiated right away as the Apostles were planting missions, and these new elders would not have been comfortable (or smart) improvising, so set forms were established that varied from village to town.

Most writers would probably say that the liturgy of Antioch was earliest, but which version? My bet would be the most primitive form of the Antiochion line (traceable somehow to Antioch) still in use would be the Addai and Mari liturgy, it doesn't even have words of institution and apparently never did. Of course, I am not an expert, that's just my opinion.

Michael

Hi James!

I actually like the Missa Normativa very much, and I always have.

I found my way back to God through that liturgy, it's funny how it works for some people and not others.

I have been to SSPX liturgies and indult masses around Chicago and I still prefer the Novus Ordo. We have a parish here called St John Cantius that has both, and both well done. People rave about it.

But I still love the the way it's done in my neighborhood, I guess I'm lucky.

PAX
Michael

Hi Daniel n!

You've got a whole lot of Holy, Holy, Holy there!

Michael

Adrian Fortescue, God rest his soul, was an interesting character and his books on the Eastern Churches are still worth reading - but he was also a firm Latin chauvinist (not unusual for someone from England, oddly enough) who, for example, thought that the only value of Byzantine chant is that it makes people appreciate Gregorian chant all the more! And yes, in the search for which Liturgy currently in use is the oldest, the Assyrian-Chaldean Liturgy seems to be the winner.
Fortescue, by the way, produced what seems to be the first Catholic translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom into English. It's not bad (Fortescue's Greek was excellent). Incognitus
P. S. "Missa Normativa" - haven't heard that expression in years!

Dear Michael,

Great pic for your avatar.

What do our Eastern brothers & sisters think of it?

Paul

I'm not Eastern but it strikes me as a great example of East meeting West

Brother Michael,

Nice avatar, some will label it with the "H" word though, now you have me checking "Missa Normativa" , does'nt ring a bell........yet.

Yes, I miss the Old Mass Rite, guess it was too easy just to change the Latin to English.

james

Dear Michael, Thanks. The Administrator objects to the size. I told him fine, can you make it a little bigger? He also questioned whether I had permission to use it and was afraid of violating copyright. I found it on Google Images and assumed it was okay to use. You have access to a vast array of images; how do you know one is okay to use?
Anyway that is off the subject. Does anyone else find all these arguments a bit disheartening? You know: who has the oldest liturgy, who honors Mary the most, who has the worst record of sins and abuses, etc.
It sometimes seems that many on this forum are seeking to continue rather than heal the division between our communions.

I read this thread a couple of hours ago and thought to myself, "Who cares which liturgy is the oldest? They are all legitimate ways to worship God." Thanks for your post!

Some people prefer to worship in Latin, others prefer the vernacular in the Novus Ordo (which I am probably spelling wrong), still others like the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (I am in this group)... As a spiritual director once told me, "We all have different spiritualities." God is self-sufficient and doesn't need our worship. The Church has so many forms of worship in order to help us worship Him to the best of our individual abilities.

Shlomo TOTIL :p ,
Our liturgies can go from 1 to 1.5 hours on average. It matters if the priest does the whole service, or cuts some corners.

And no we do not use a "Novus Ordo" like service. Actually our Patriarchal Synod (the first in 300 years) just put the finishing touches on the proper translations of the Qorbono.

Take care Logos Teen .

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Since I wrote in yesterday to say that the current crop of experts consider the Assyrian/Chaldean Liturgy the oldest one still in use, AND since I've never even attended it, perhaps I may at least claim to have provided the information without seeking to promote any particular cause beyond the dissemination of factual information. The historical study of Liturgy is worth-while in itself; there's no need to apologize for engaging in it. Incognitus

Diak,

The confiteor before communion isn't considered part of the Mass, I believe, and neither are the Leonine Prayers. The purpose of the Tridentine Reform was to remove medieval accretions etc. without going overboard. Pius V had the Protestant Reformation in mind when he codified the liturgy.

From what I've heard about Fr. Fortescue, it seems he was a genius, in more ways than one. Liturgically, he seems to be the real "creme de la creme." I don't think it's quite so easy to discount his comments.

He was known for knowing loads of information about the Eastern liturgies, and appreciated all of them. The very fact that he was English (and not French or Italian) should mean something about his supposed "chauvinism."

Yuhannon,

This is great to know - - - more power to the Maronites! I'll have to attend sometime.

Tammy,

I apologize if you find this discussion disheartening. I'm not intending to divide. It's not a competition as to what liturgy is the oldest, simply a discussion on the historical developments of liturgy.

Logos Teen

Actually I thought the oldest liturgy was at Rome and not the Roman Canon which developed much later but the Novus Ordo Eucharistic Prayer II which is an almost word for word translation of the Liturgy celebrated by Hippolytus a Bsp of Rome in the early part of the the 3rd Century around the year 200 AD.
Stephanos I

Dear Daniel,

Does size really matter?

Alex

Dear Stephanos,

The point is, however, which direction was St Hippolytus facing when he prayed that liturgy?

Alex

LT, if the second confiteor is within the Mass, right before Communion, how can it not be a part of the Mass? Just a private devotion thrown into one of the most solemn part of the Mass? That does not make any sense. It is a case in point, as this occurred after the Council of Trent as a liturgical "accretion" which Trent sought to stop.

And while you may have a point with the Leonine Prayers, these were definitely "appended" to the Low Mass, as the priest said had to say them, and say them prior to leaving with the Chalice, which was the liturgical "signal" for the ending of Low Mass. Doesn't sound like an optional private devotion to me.

If you will re-read my post, having "some difficulty" is certainly not completely discounting his comments. I greatly respect Dr. Fortescue's research, who one has to take into account inherent biases when reading as with anyone doing historical liturgical research.

And as I said previously, in spite of the very strong language of Quo Primum, changes did continue to occur to the Tridentine Rite. The revision of the Tridentine Rite in 1962 actually is more in line historically with the Mass of Pius the V than the existing in the time of Leo XIII and St. Pius the X.

Stephanos, that is an excellent point about St. Hippolytus. Also it is my understanding that the protoanaphora of St. James in the Syrian tradition is also very ancient, as is the Anaphora of Mari and Addai previously mentioned.

Since the Apostles all went their separate ways, all continuing that which they experienced in the Upper Room, none can really claim to be the "oldest" as these were the words and actions of Our Lord Himself (although spoken in Aramaic, Yuhannon ). I'm with Tammy on that one, i.e. the various cultural expressions the apostolic traditions took on really are a wonderful manifestation of the "catholicity" of the Church.

I think Fr. Stephanos is right--I've been told that the Roman Canon has the same roots and the Coptic Anaphora, the only major difference being the order of the institution narrative and the epiclesis. If this is true, then the 'Tridentine' liturgy can't be older than the Coptic liturgy.

Justin

The actual canon of St. Hippolytus does not even resemble the Eucharistic Prayer II. Look at them side by side. Not even close. If we weren't constantly being told that #II is based on the canon of St. Hippolytus, I never would have guessed.

LT

BTW how do we know that the Coptic anaphora isn't actually newer?

What about the tradition that Christ gave the Liturgy to the Apostles before ascending into Heaven? If that were the case, then the similiarities between the Coptic and Roman anaphoras could be explained by their common ancestor, rather than one being derived from the other.

LT

The Leonine Prayers are certainly not part of the Roman Mass. The normative form of celebration is the Solemn High Mass (or even the Pontifical High Mass); the Leonine Prayers were used only for Low Mass. Q. E. D. Incognitus

Dear Friends,

Isn't the Clementine Liturgy the one that was once used universally in the Church?

Alex

Dear LT,

So when the Apostles went to the Temple for readings and then gathered at someone's home for the Liturgy of the Word . . .

Which part of that liturgical rite was ordained by Heaven?

No wonder you are so good at Hebrew!

Alex

incognitus, if the Leonine prayers were required to be recited at every Low Mass, are they not then part of the Mass by accretion? Interesting question. My consideration of this from a Byzantine perspective would be that the reciting of prayers required to be said "liturgically" by the priest before the altar prior to the departure of the priest from the altar to unvest, would be a liturgical action not easily separable from the preceding liturgical actions.

In theory I agree with your statement about the High Mass being normative. But even though the "normative" form of celebration was intended to be the High Mass by the Motu Proprio of Pius X, this in reality never really happened except on Sundays and feast days in most parishes. The daily parish Mass remained the Low Mass in most places and still does in places with a daily Tridentine Mass outside of a few monasteries or seminaries.

No, the Leonine Prayers are not part of the Mass by accretion - even though the average Mass-goer probably assumed the contrary. And the sad fact that most people rarely if ever had access to an authentic Solemn High Mass does not refute my point that the Solemn High Mass is normative - "normative" means what is supposed to be going on, not what actually goes on! To offer a simpler example, the altar used for the Roman Mass is normatively (albeit rarely!) covered with a full antipendium, is free-standing and is made entirely of stone. How many of those did most people see? Incognitus

incognitus:

You should come by sometime, and experience it.

God bless,

Rony

I should be delighted and grateful to attend the Chaldean Qurbana (in the form of the Raza, please!) wtih the fullest solemnity - and would try to prepare myself for the experience by studying the relevant texts as carefully as possible. However, alas, I am at a very considerable distance from the nearest Chaldean Church where this might be possible, and I have obligations of my own. Therefore, I offer a humble but serious suggestion: is it not possible for some parish with a fully suitable temple (equipped as it should be), with a full complement of clergy, and with superbly good chanters to produce a high-quality video-recording of the Qurbana done with full solemnity? Such a video-recording would be a precious treasure and a marvelous gift to the Church ("gift" here does not mean that the recipients should not contribute appropriately to the cost of production). Incognitus

incognitus:

I'll see what I can do for you. I'll ask around if a video is already available. If not, I'll see if one can be made.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,
Thanks! Such a video really would be wonderful.
Incognitus

Disclaimer: the following is done with the tongue firmly planted into the cheek, please do not take it seriously.

I have decided that the only Liturgy that I will attend will be where the Priest bilocates, concelebrates, and levitates all at the same time. That way I KNOW that the holy spirit is there.

Postclaimer: You may now get back to your regularly scheduled historical discussion on the historical basis of the different rites.

Rony and Incognitus,

Recently, Deacon Lance posted a link here to some photos of St. Joseph's Chaldean Catholic Church in Troy, MI. In the discussion that followed, I noted that the photos were an addendum to a paper on the East Syrian Holy Qurbana, done by a young man named Andrew Casad for a theology course on Eastern Liturgies.

These are the relevant links:

Byz Forum Thread - Pictures of Chaldean Catholic Parish

Photos - St Joseph\'s Chaldean Catholic Parish, Troy, MI [nd.edu]

The Chaldean Catholic Mass: Liturgical Mediation of Heaven & Earth [nd.edu]


I would wonder about the possibility that such a video may have been produced by Mr. Casad in conjunction with that endeavor? At the moment, it's too late (or too early) for me to consider how one might check out the prospects. The tiny one has opted for sleep, so I may as well go for it too, while I can.

Many years,

Neil

Irish Melkite:

Thank you for posting these links. I frequently look on the Internet for any information regarding my Church, and this is the first time I have seen this link to St. Joseph's and the link to Andrew's paper. I am going to comment a little on the thread started by Fr. Deacon Lance.

Andrew left an email address on his paper, so I will email him about it.

God bless,

Rony

Unfortunately Andrew did not make a videotape of the Liturgy, but that's ok, I'm still inquiring elsewhere for a tape.

By the way, this is Andrew's website: http://www.nd.edu/~acasad/

God bless,

Rony

I have longed for so long to go a Chaldean liturgy. Byzantine is great, Trindentine is beautiful, the current normantive mass is great, but I still long to go to a Chaldean liturgy.

As far as the oldest liturgy goes, in the West there were many many liturgies each sharing many of the same prayers. After the Council of Trent when the Tridentine mass was normalized, it was demanded that everyone adopt it unless they could demonstrate a liturgy that was older than a few hundred years of their own. The Tridentine mass included many of the favorite parts of various liturgies, though the heart of it is the Roman Canon which is strictly of Western Origin and has remained unchanged since the first few hundred years of the Church. There are many liturgies that are very very old. They are proper to the place from which that came, and no one can properly claim credit for them but the people who used them. I will say, however, that it is fallicious that the Romans used greek in their Liturgy. One of the oldest fragments that we have from any liturgy is in latin, and it read, quite simply "Dominus Vobiscum/Et Cum Spiritu Tuo". Both the liturgies in he East and the West claim apostolic origin, both have parts to them which are older and newer, and neither can take credit for the other. This also simply because there wasn't so much a division in the Church. Rome may include the Kyrie to show the universality of the Church, but it was still Rome's Kyrie in union with the Kyrie of all the other particular Churches. It seems important to me to look with wonder on the other rites and to enjoy the beauty of the diversity of God's Church without trying to take credit for it. The fact is there are several liturgies which can justly claim apostolic origins as well as several which directly. It seems right to me that it should have developed so.

Joseph

Laudetur Iesus:

I see that you are from Ann Arbor, Michigan. Just so you know, there are five Chaldean parishes in Michigan. I'm not familiar with the geography of Michigan, so I'm not sure which one is closest to Ann Arbor. I'll just go ahead and list all five of them for you, their addresses, and phone numbers, incase you decide one day to attend one of them for the Liturgy.

Our Lady of Chaldeans Cathedral
(Mother of God Church)
25585 Berg Road, Southfield, MI, 48034
248-356-0565

Sacred Heart Church
310 West Seven Mile Road, Detroit, MI, 48203
313-368-6214

Mar Addai Church
24010 Coolidge Highway, Oak Park, MI, 48237
248-547-4648

Saint Joseph Church
2442 Big Beaver Road, Troy, MI, 48083
248-528-3676

Saint Thomas Church
6900 Maple Road, West Bloomfield, MI, 48322
248-788-2460

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,

I was wondering if you would do us the favour and discuss a bit about the liturgical differences between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian?

What, in other words, do "you do" that they don't?

You have icons - I understand they don't, but could they?

In what ways would the Assyrians consider you to be "Latinized" if they indeed do?

Does the Assyrian tradition have prayer-beads and, if so, does the Chaldean Church have it too - or is the Chaldean practice in this regard an imitation of the Western rosary?

How many Ecumenical Councils does the Chaldean Church recognize? I ask this within the context of the debate here that we of the Byzantine tradition formally recognize the Seven Ecumenical Councils and consider the other 14 Latin Councils to be local.

But with your tradition, this is a different matter, on the face of it, since your Church goes back to the Second Council when Nestorius was condemned.

And, finally, what is the attitude of the Chaldean Church today toward Mar Nestorius, Mar Theodore of Mopsuestia and Mar Diodore of Tarsus?

Could these be venerated in a future united Church?

Is it even an issue?

I thank you in advance for sharing what you can with us!

Alex

Incognitus:

I spoke to my bishop on Sunday, and it looks like I will be able to get a copy of a tape of him celebrating the Holy Liturgy at that beautiful church of St. Joseph's back when he was only a priest, but I'm not sure over all the details yet, so stay tuned.


Orthodox Catholic:

Good thought provoking questions I'll try my best to answer them:

I'll give you a couple of examples:

1. In our Liturgy of mar Addai and mar Mari, the priest recites the words of Institution. The Assyrian Church generally does not do so in her celebration of this Liturgy. I say "generally" because in the "Guidlines for Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East" the following is written: "When Chaldean faithful are participating in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist, the Assyrian minister is warmly invited to insert the words of the Institution in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, as allowed by the Holy Synod of the Assyrian Church of the East."

2. In our Liturgy, we refer to the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God. Shortly before the Creed, the priest says: "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. At the holy altar, let there be the memory of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God." The Assyrian Church of the East does not refer to her as Mother of God but does call her the Mother of Christ our God and Savior. Despite this, the "Common Christological Declaration Between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East" does say the following: "We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety."


I honestly don't see why they couldn't. They do have the story of the Mandylion of Edessa where it is said that the sick King Abgar of Edessa was healed through a cloth containing an imprint of Jesus' facial features on it, thus the appropriatness of images. However, I'm not exactly sure why they don't have them. Perhaps if there are any Assyrian members on this forum who can comment on this.


Here are a couple of examples that can be considered as latinizations (Sometimes it's difficult to tell between what is a latinization and what is an organic development):

1. In my parish (I presume in other Chaldean parishes as well), unleavened bread is used for the Eucharist, whereas traditionally it was leavened.

2. In the Creed, the filioque is recited, whereas traditionally it was not.


I am not aware of the Assyrian Church having any tradition of prayer beads or ropes. Chaldean Catholics imitate the Western rosary.


We formally recognize all 21 of them as ecumenical. The Assyrian Church of the East does not formally accept the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus where Nestorius was condemened, but we do. We accept all of them as ecumenical because the Pope regards them as such (cf. CCEC Can. 51-54).

By the way, Anthony Dragani, himself a Byzantine, will also say that all Eastern Catholic Churches including the Byzantine ones officially recognize 21 ecumenical councils. Here it is: Anthony\'s answer [ewtn.com]


I will try to answer the rest in a few days.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,

As for Anthony Dragani, when it comes to the Councils, he really doesn't know what he is talking about .

It is interesting that the Assyrians don't have a tradition of the prayer rope - especially since we know that the ancient pagan Assyrians invoked their gods using knotted cords! And perhaps that is why the Assyrian Christians don't have prayer ropes . . .

Byzantine Catholics have tended to look to their Mother Orthodox Churches as setting the ultimate liturgical standard for what we should be about in our worship.

In the case of the Chaldeans and Assyrians, it would be different, I surmise, because of the great historic issues regarding Christology that originally divided the Assyrian and Orthodox-Catholic Churches.

What I mean is that the terms your two Churches use with respect to the Virgin Mary is not only about the issue of Westernization - but, more importantly, about an important doctrinal issue i.e. her Divine Maternity.

Before the Chaldeans and Assyrians may unite in one confessional terminology in this respect, there has to be a clear statement of doctrinal intent concerning the issue at hand.

So a "return to ancient tradition" is made more "difficult" precisely because of the historic Christological controversies in which your Church was front and centre in at the second Council.

And whether or not Byzantine Churches have Orthodox saints on its calendar is less of a problem than in your Churches' case since a number of Assyrian teachers have been outrightly condemned as heretics.

But a Chaldean priest I know (who used to use our Basilian school chapel for the Qurbono) invited Assyrian priests to concelebrate with him and told me he didn't believe the ancient condemnations against the Assyrian teachers "apply" or at least could be easily revoked upon reunion.

He used to get our Basilian Fathers angry when he explained to them that Nestorius was himself a Basilian . . .

Thank you for sharing your Church's life with us!

Alex

Dear Rony, I eagerly await further news of that videotape! And thanks for going to the trouble.
Incognitus

Dear Friends, So far, nobody has mentioned the Liturgy of St.James the Brother of the Lord, which has to be the oldest BYZANTINE Rite Liturgy.This Liturgy was unknown to the Russian Church, so neither the Old Believers nor the Ukrainian/Ruthenian Catholics ever used it to the best of my knowledge.It might be known to the Melchite Church, since it has been preserved in both Greece and the Jerusalem Patriarchate.It was translated into Slavonic and served for the first time by Russian clergy in Yugoslavia in the 1920's.It is now served at Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville ,NY, on the Feast of St.James,Nov 5th N.S..I've never served it nor seen it served,it requires at least 2 Priests or a Priest with a Deacon. In the late 70's it was translated into English by Hieromonk John (Lewis), then of ROCOR. Somewhere I have a copy of this translation, which he was kind enough to send me a copy.I can,t locate it right now, so I can't comment further,but it certainly is older than St.Basil's Liturgy which was slightly modified by St. John Chrysostom.

Shlomo Fr. Al,
The Liturgy of St. James IS the Liturgy for all Antiochene Christians. Both the Syriac and Byzantines Antiochene Chrisitians use it. It is the only tradition that was not crushed by the Byzantination of the Melkite Church. It is celebrated only once a year on 23 October.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

I go to an Antiochian Orthodox Church, and used to attend vespers at a melkite Church, all I have seen was the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, I thought that only the Monophysites use the Liturgy of St. James. We have one of there parishes like 4 miles from my house, one of my Eastern Catholic friends went there she said it was very intresting.
Dont see Saint James liturgy much.

In Christ
Daniel

Shlomo Dan,
Maronites are not nor never have been Monophysites. Further, Oriental Orthodox Churches would point out that they are not nor were Monophysites. Here is what Syiac Orthodox Maphryono Mor Gregorius Bar 'Ebroyo (1226-1286) wrote:

Both the Eastern Orthodox Communion and the Catholic Communion recognize that the above to be true.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Orthodox Catholic:

I emailed a Chaldean seminarian friend of mine on this one, asking him if the above three are currently considered heretics by our Church, and he replied with the following:

"It depends whom you ask. If you ask me, no. Officially, however, they are still considered heretics."

Regarding whether or not they could be venerated in the future if and when the Assyrian Church reunites with us, he stated that this is certainly an issue, and one of the reasons why he's writing a thesis partially on Theodore which he hopes will lead to a positive dialogue.

I'll let Anthony defend himself on this one

It is certainly much harder for us

I'm curious, do you know what was the name of this priest?

God bless,

Rony

There is a parallel Greek-English edition of the Liturgy of Saint James available from the Greek Archdiocese - it can probably be obtained from the Holy Cross Seminary bookstore in Brookline, and perhaps from Light and Life. There's an English-only edition published by the British Orthodox Church (Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria) and various other editions have appeared. There is also a Ukrainian translation published several decades ago by a Basilian priest in Brazil. Incognitus

Dear Fr.Al -

The Turchanie Old Believers (cossacks who migrated to Turkey) used the Liturgy of St James together with other Liturgies prior to leaving Turkey (1970's?).

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Fr. Mark, Did these Cossacks get their priests from the Hierarchy which originated in Bea Krinnitsa in the 19th ccenturey? It may be that this was something overlooked by the Nikonian reforms.I would really like to see an Old Believer Sluzhenik for this Liturgy. In Christ, Fr.Andrei

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us. Amen.

Dear Fr Andrei - bless.

Strangely enough, they were provided with Old Ritualist priests from the Ecumenical Patriarchate. However, the manuscripts they used were of pre-Nikonian Russian origin. Sadly, the volumes in question were confiscated by the Turkish authorities as articles of special historical interest.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Greetings Everyone,

Here is a copy of the St. James Liturgy courtesy of the New Advent [newadvent.org] website.

Pax

To resurrect a thread that has died out, what can anyone tell me of the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril, and its placement in time?

Gaudior,

Two choices.

The Liturgy of Saint Cyril from ca. 347-348, which is said to basically be the Liturgy of Saint James. See:

Liturgy of Jerusalem [ewtn.com]

or,

That of the Copts, said to be St, Mark's Liturgy in essence, translated by St. Cyril (376-444), Patriarch of Alexandria . See:

Coptic Liturgy of St Mark, Commonly Known as Liturgy of St Cyril [copticchurch.net]

Many years,

Neil

Dear Rony,

I'll try and find out his name and address - if you have a Chaldean calendar, he would be the main parish priest in Toronto.

Alex

Dear Alex:

Unfortunately, I only have the caldendar for the two Chaldean eparchies of the U.S. If it becomes difficutlt for you to track down his name and address, then that's ok, I can always find out through my parish.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,

I'll see if I can locate him - I knew him some years ago when our Basilian Fathers let our Chaldean community use their college chapel for the Qurbono - and until they got their own church.

In the Holy Saints of Seleucia-Ctesiphon!

Alex

Thank you, Neil...just getting around to it. I appreciate the information, and am grateful for the links.

hummm An oldie but goodie...just love to drag up old discussions Our Angela is not Eastern yet, Teen is still a high school Teen

WOW, I also heard something relating to this discussion.

Angela is a fully paid up easterner these days. She is on the Ukr side of the street now. All has been sorted and I have seen the pics where she was sworn in. Oh yes definately one of us now...seen the scars on the forehead if they were any longer she could have become Australian as well. Still we often can't have everything in life.

Isnt actually the oldest liturgy that of Hippolytus Bsp of Rome?
Stephanos I

I dont think anyone is still using that, while the Lit. of St James is still in use. I note that there is a sort of revival of this among the Byzantines. There was a posting recently with pics of the liturgy being celebrated in a seminary in Slovakia. While the Oriental Churches use it much more often.

ICXC
NIKA

It might surprise you all that the 2nd Canon of the Weastern Liturgy is based on the liturgy of Hippolytus.
Stephanos I

Dear Stephanos,
May I suggest comparing an authentic text of the Anaphora of Hippolytus with the 2nd Eucharistic Prayer?

Incognitus

You all know well that this type of tit for tat discussion will inevitably lead to ...who is non-, or un-, ..canonical. IF, we have an axe to grind, as I have been told before to be charitable, I think we should take this off-list to private email. Just my two cents, Mikhailo S Bohom

I'm no scholar, but based simply on english translations I've browsed, I'd imagine that a faithful translation of the Anaphora of Hippolytus into Latin would look much different from the Latin text Eucharistic Prayer II (the Latin text of course being the standard by which we need to judge the present Roman Missal).

Cardinal Bugnini, on page 456 of his book, states that EPII is basically a newly composed Roman eucharistic prayer which used the AoH as a model.

For once in his lamentable career, Bugnini approached honesty - the relationship between the Anaphora of Hippolytus and Eucharistic Prayer 2 is very loose indeed.

Incognitus

I didn't imply it was an exact copy, I merely stated that it was based upon the 3rd Century Liturgy of Hippolytus!
Stephanos I