http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&e=7&u=/nm/health_churches_dc

An interesting study done in Holland that says candles and incense may pose a danger to health. Don

I saw that. In older churches in our humid area, mold and mildew drive us allergy sufferers nuts. Of course, there have been crazies in charge of the censer who have driven several of us out into the vestibule, but we won't talk about that.

I used to get dizzy from the incense when I was pregnant. Had to sit through the service instead of standing.

Tammy

It would be interesting to know what kind of candles and incense they used in the "simulated mass ceremony" to which they refer. I can tell the difference between paraffin and beeswax candles in a closed space, the smell is very different one from the other. Paraffin is petroleum based as I understand it.

Amen; anyone interested in starting a campaign to outlaw petroleum-based candles? At the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in DC there is a shrine to Our Lady of Lourdes that is full of [petro] vigil lights; it smells like an oil refinery and I am sure it is bad for one's health. Beeswax, on the contrary, burns with a sweet floral smell and I find it hard to believe that it would harm you.
Does anyone know anything about the composition of modern incenses?
-Daniel

I don't know what's in incense, but the cheaper ones smoke badly. I understand that some incense is also synthetic, which may account for part of the problem. One of the churches in the area uses what is called a "smokeless" incense. There is a fragrance, but not the overpowering smoke that tears at your throat and eyes.

The smoke never bothered me; in fact as a young server in the Latin Mass I used to love carrying the censor; standing still at funerals with the smoke clouding around me was great!

I love the use of incense in worship and have liked it ever since I was first exposed to it.

I also enjoyed my visit to the local Coptic Orthodox Church, because if any of you have ever visited a Coptic Orthodox Church then you know that they definitely are not stingy with the incense. The church was so filled with the smoke of the incense you could barely see the ceiling - it was GREAT!!!!

In Christ,
Aaron

I, of course, have noticed that all the priests and monks have died young of lung diseases... :rolleyes:

Not to mention the fact that one never sees pious great-grandmothers in churches, becuase, of course, no one can live that long going to church... :p

Gaudior, who thinks this another smokescreen

I love the smell of incense, but the smoke doesn't agree with those of us who have allergies. After I leave Divine Liturgy my throat and eyes actually hurt. I have even gone into the vestibule during Liturgy to get away from it - and been joined by others doing the same. Some have told me that it would be less of a problem if we bought a better grade of incense.

But Gaudior- while I appreciate your humor, don't you think that synthetic candles and incenses might not be harmful to your health?
Think of it: the beeswax candle is composed of beeswax, gathered by God's little bees from flowers, aside from Woman His most beautiful creation. When burnt, the beeswax candle smells like honey, reminiscent of the fields of summer.
The parrafin candle, on the other hand, has its roots in the bowels of the earth, in the general vicinity of what our ancestors would have called "Hell".It is formed from dead, rotted matter, unlike the wax candle, formed from living beings at the peak of their existence. When burnt, the odor of the petro candle is reminiscent more of the New Jersey turnpike than of the sweet summer...
Daniel, who has a preference for the natural,[as opposed to the artificial]

Um, yeah Daniel...you might want to get some professional help.

I personally like playing in graveyards while smoking cigarettes. :rolleyes:

LOL

Logos Teen

Yes, that actually could be part of, or the whole problem.

In some cases it really is worth it to spring the extra dough to buy the upgraded and better thing and this applies to incense as well.

Have you brought this matter to the attention of your priest?

In Christ,
Aaron

Hey Garrett- Did I mention that if we served at funerals we also got out of school?
Furthermore, in the old Latin Rite, funerals were somber rituals, with the priests wearing black vestments and the most solemn chants and the long tolling of the bells...
Okay, maybe it was a pre-Goth thing, but I always appreciated the solemnity, so unlike modern funerals, with the chatty eulogies and upbeat, premature canonizations of the dearly departed...
-Daniel, not really so morbid

I may be the only one intereted in this, but Iconophile suggestions about the difference between beeswax and paraffin candles got me curious.

Paraffin
http://www.candlewic.com/candle-wax/wax-overview.asp

Beeswax
http://www.herbdatanz.com/beeswax_picture_monograph.htm
Paraffin is mostly hydrocarbons; beeswax (a secretion of the bees) is mostly an ester with only ~10% hydrocarbon. With smaller, volatile compounds, the hydrocarbons would smell like gasoline, while esters often have strong and sometimes pleasing fragrance. But the main compounds in the waxes are heavy, and the fragrance or smell probably comes from trace compounds or, when burning, from products of partial combustion.

The flame temperatures are about the same. So different composition would the key factor, and could have a big impact on particulates, free radicals, and aromatic compounds. I would guess that the synthetic product would burn cleaner. And while the levels might exceed workplace standards, the exposure is not prolonged, in contrast to workplace or home exposure. It is probably substantially less risky than an occasional cigar.

So djs, are you saying that contrary to the evidence of our senses, and all common sense, that synthetic waxes are better for us than the sweetly scented beeswax?
Sorry, I find that hard to believe, whatever scientific evidence you can quote.
-Daniel, more attuned to the intuitive

ps

http://www.candlewic.com/candle-wax/pop-natural.asp

Among the natural/renewable candle waxes is this one:

The candle equivalent of tofu!

I dunno, I just read today that soy oils negatively affect sperm counts, and exclusive use of them would result in depopulation..
-Daniel, who values his virility

Just a guess. The paraffins seem to be simpler in composition, and could be more easily made to burn cleanly (less particulates, free-radicals). It's at the level of trace compounds, not major constituents, that carcinogens, etc. become an issue.

Similarly, it is trace constituents that give rise to your intuitive ideas related to, sensory evidence. This evidence may be good, and a programmed survival skill, but it probably doesn't have much to do with clean burning (particulates, and free-radicals) or the carcinogens at trace levels that are the putative health hazards. I didn't find anything on the actual combustion products yet, so it's just a guess. Btw what is "synthetic" about paraffin?
Your story about the appeal of beeswax versus paraffin is interesting, but I wouldn't call it common sense - which, AFAIK, has it that diamonds, for example, are very nice.

Poetic truth or scientific evidence? That is the question: Give me poetry or give me death!
While I could in good conscience describe my true love's scent as like unto a sweet beeswax candle, if I compared it to a paraffin candle, I'm afraid I'd end up on the couch for the night!
-Daniel, unrepentantly poetic [see GK Chesterton]

Yes, I've noticed how you wax poetic with Dan L. :p

But your poetry against paraffins could apply to diamonds, which my wife likes very much. I do not eschew poetry, nor scientific evidence. (It was involved, I gather in saving your life, and has thus had a strong impact on your virility.)

And I did a very quick look at studies on soy phytoestrogens - several publications in the last couple of years. In animal models at moderate consumption levels that have salutary effects, for example, in preventing prostrate cancer, it does not appear to have negative consequences on testicular function. But google, on the other hand was full of stories. And they weren't especially poetic either.

Yes that is right; I am a Luddite who has been humbled by modern medicine saving my life; I haven't figured out how to balance these two facets of my life yet, but I do know that I value my "testicular function", as you so unpoetically put it.
The points you make, as always, are interesting and well-thought out. Still, that petro candles might be healthier than beeswax is so counter-intuitive that I will wager that this will be like so many "scientific" surprises, and will be later proven false by "further studies"; think about how many times this has happened in our lifetime.
-Daniel

I wouldn't take the wager, because the problem is so complicated. It hinges not immediately on the contituents of the candles but what happens to them in the flame. It's an interesting question; I wouldn't be surprised to find that this Dutch group is already busy, in further studies, comparing various candles and incense, so we may get to know the actual results.

Your venture to strike a balance between ludditism and technology - techno-suspicion and techno-faith are very interesting to me; maybe you'd like to talk more about it in a new thread.

yes, I saw a similar "study" done in Ireland. I wonder if they have done a study to show that sitting in a bar or a pub with the smoke, and the beer would be harmful or not????

Of course such studies have been done, Mike C. :rolleyes: Ever hear of second-hand smoke?
And why the quotes around "study"?

I am not so sorry to say that I adore the incense. It is part of the tradition, symbolizing to me the mystery of heaven. It's part of the mysticism that I love about the whole of Eastern Catholicism.

I do agree about the beeswax candles though. I do sympathize with those with allergies, but the use of incense is tradition, used long before us and most likely will be in use long after our passing.

I think Mike was asking about whether or now the beer would be harmful to consume, due to all the smoke in a bar.

Well of course officially smoking in Ireland's pubs and bars is now banned - but knowing the Irish they'll get a way round it

Seriously though - yes I'm certain that there could be a problem here though how much is down to the charcoal and how much is down to Incense I don't know.

Some charcoal just seems to give off more smoke than others.

As for incense - well mine comes from a ROCOR Monastery in England and seems to be a much higher quality than some others - I bought some in France earlier this year - and it is in seed form - melts everywhere and does not really burn - very little 'smell' from it .

Back to candles - we used to use Oil Candles on our Altar [ don't shudder please - there is a draft problem on our Sanctuary and the old ladies that did our Altar Linen were not happy about the state of the linen with candle wax everywhere - a clean Altar Cloth for every Mass was really getting a wee bit much for them -16 Altar cloths a week !!!! ] so we switched to Oil candles - problem solved , yes we had tried Glass plates under the candles - but nothing seemd to work . I kept muttering beeswax - but of course that's Eastern - so I was not listened to

Now we are back to 'real' candles again but the new candlesticks do have bases which will catch the drips from the candles - but I would much prefer the 'warm' smell of beeswax.

Anhelyna

The Latin Rite church where I am organist uses beeswax candles with followers. When the followers are fitted properly, they don't seem to drip.

I definitely think that paraffin candles not only smell worse but would also emit far more volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and semi-volatile organic compounds (SVOCs) because of their synthetic composition of complex petroleum hydrocarbons as well as impurities inherent in any refining process. The PAHs (polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons) emitted by combustion of synthetics are well documented.

But all organic chemistry aside, what happened to the very profound significance of using what God Himself has made through His wondrous creation, such as bees and the fruit of their labor, beeswax, and offer it back to Him, rather than what man makes with an enormous amount of impact associated with it (refineries)?

Exposure to a few hours a week compared to what one gets from household chemicals, industrial or municipal air pollution, and certainly filling up the gas tank (direct exposure to high levels of benzene, ethylbenzene, toluene, xylene, methyl-tert butyl ether, 1,2-dichloroethane, ethylene dibromide, 1,2-4 and 1,3-5 trimethylbenzene, etc.) is completely negligible to church from any coherent risk-based exposure analysis.

Ancient aromotherapy made use of both incense and beeswax.

Without much breeze, beeswax doesn't drip very much. Yet another reason to go with the bees.

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

I remember attending Paska Services at St. Nicholas OCA Cathedral in Washington,DC with friends one year.

His Beautitude, Metropolitan Theodosius was blessing the ikonostas with the kadila and turned to bless the congregation. One of the women standing a few yards away from me bowed her head to bless herself and POOOF!!! Her moussed hair swung into the flame of her Paschal candle and it was instant MICHAEL JACKSON...

Well, people started smacking her in the head with prayer books and all I could think of was JUST BEAT IT, BEAT IT... I had to leave the services cause I couldn't stop laughing...

I guess going to church can dangerous for your health...

marko

I've had some experience with both parafin and beeswax candles at work. (It's customary to have a vigil candle burn beside the bier in the funeral home for Catholic and Orthodox funerals.)

Parafin candles have an almost invisible black, greasy soot that comes off and leaves a nice round ring on the white ceiling above the place where it burned. Beeswax doesn't. As for having to wash down the ceiling after each wake, give me beeswax every time.

Don't know a lot about the chemistry, etc., but I do know about having to clean up after parafin.

BOB

P.S.: One church I worked in had solved the problem of drafts by buying some sort of clear glass or plastic devices that surrounded the flame on the candles. You could see the flame but nothing made it flicker.

Well, intuition on behalf of beeswax is born out by "studies", I am happy to report. Although... the better qualities of beeswax vs paraffin stems from the fact that paraffin amde on the cheap; it is not synthetic but, extracted very crudely without removal of the dangerous compounds. And the worst thing about beeswax: pesticides!


Here's some "studies".

EPA summary on candles and incense with references to the literature.
http://web.ksl.com/dump/news/cc/series/candepa.htm

These referenced studies are very pertinent. The first is free on-line

Fine PM, Cass GR, Simoneit BRT. 1999. Characterization of fine particle emissions from
burning church candles. Environmental Science and Technology, 33:2352-2362.

Lau C, Fiedler H, Hutzinger O, Schwind KH, Hosseinpour J. 1997. Levels of selected
organic compounds in materials for candle production and human exposure to candle
emissions. Chemosphere, 34(5-7):1623-1630.

From an insurance journal, on claims raelted to sooting
http://www.claimsmag.com/Issues/Aug01/blacksoot.asp

On sooting:

This is realted to burn rate (Fine et al.) more that composition - at least for candles like paraffin, beeswax, soywax - that have similar flame and melt temperatures. Long wicks, high air flow/turbulence, core melts (in, e.g., thick candles), are key factors. If candles is shaped and burned properly (and doesn't contain pigments/scent that change its burn characteristics), then sooting should not be a problem. Moreover, the particulates in a good burn are smaller than is considred dangerous. It is interesting to note that tallow based candles with different melt and flame characteristics were uncontrollably sooty; in earlier times they were the alternative to beeswax, and were banned for ecclesiastical use because of their mess.

From Claims:
Organic Compounds:

Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons PAHs are probably of most concern. What you get in the air comes from what is already present in the candle wax and not combusted in the flame. Paraffins contain over 400 times the PAHs of beeswax. This is really related to the process isolating what is called a paraffin - not a mixture of long hyrocarbons but a complex extract from petroleum. Removing these PAHs from the wax would not be difficult; or direct synthesis as mixtures of long hydrocarbons would avoid them altogether. Either strategy would eliminate the PAH problem. This would add cost, and the apparent niche for paraffin is that it is cheap. But a clean paraffin candle not a difficult problem.

Beeswax has substantially more chlorophenols, chlorobenzenes, dioxins, - compounds originating from pesticides. Soy, barberry, etc. candles would presumably have the same problem. Analyses are still showing DDT! These compounds could probably be removed as well, but may be difficult to remove without also removng some natural constituents of the wax.

Lau et al give some perspective on volatile organic compounds by comparing VOC levels in air after buring 30 candles versus smoking 1 cigarette. Formaldeyde and acetaldehyde are ~100x worse for 1 cigarette.

Fine et al give an amazingly detailed analysis of the constituents in the candles and in their gaseous products, with some very interesting comparisions.

One major health hazard from burning candles was very surprising. All altar boys who had to reach up to light tall candles remember the problems encountered because of the tendency of hot wicks, after the flame is extinguished, to curl and become embedded in the wax. To solve this problem some candle makers had the great idea of stiffening the wicks by embedding them with lead particulates. These manufacturers will be making some lawyers wealthy.

Wow djs; very impressive research. Does "djs" stand for "Dr John Science" or something similar?
And Medved: St Nicholas is perhaps my favorite church in the world, aside from some of the medieval churches I visited in Italy; it is amazing, like a foretaste of Heaven.

Iconophile,

Well, this is something I know enough about that even the most arcane details are interesting to me - like the hydrocarbons in bee and soy wax have only odd numbers of carbons - no chains with even numbers. So I was intrigued enough to spend some time seeing what was known and it was and the results are interesting. And what a shame that beeswax shows pesticides. Think about what we eat!

ps We have as a house guest over the holiday, one of the world's authorities on epidemiological studies of the health effects of soy (my sister-in-law). Her studied opinon is that worries about soy phyto-estrogens on virility are unfounded.

Well as more an intuitional than an intellectual, I find soy beans sort of, I don't know, unmanly...

Oh, indeed...I agree 100% about the evils of paraffin. (I just saw your comment). While I have been to several monasteries that manufacture beeswax candles, I have been to none with mining operations or petroleum refineries to produce paraffin...

Gaudior, who happily belongs to a church with beeswax candles