Dear friends,

Last night, an earnest young African American man confronted me at a coffee shop, and very enthusiastically tried to "witness" to me about Islam. He was a little over-zealous, and began to link white oppression of minorities in America to the Islamic struggle, but he was not Nation of Islam. When he heard I was Catholic, he laughed and called it "the ultimate white man's religion."

The Coffee shop is owned by Muslim Somali immigrants, who are very decent people and kind to me as a customer and neighbor. One of them tried to temper this young man's enthusiasm. The Somali man also praised America and told me he was voting for Ron Paul. He seemed genuine of his appreciation of America, but also was concerned that I knew he and other Muslims were not anti-American.

I attempted to share with this young man how I view God as a God of love, a relational God who is personal. I shared with him I was confident in my faith that Christ is God, a doctrine he attacked constantly through out our conversation. I wanted to witness to him in response, but he interrupted me constantly, and the coffee shop was closing anyway. In spite of his rudeness in conversation and talkativeness, he seemed quite intelligent and well read (but perhaps just enough history to be dangerous).

It struck me afterward that I need to know more about Islam. If I really want to witness to Christ in the postmodern world, I want to know how to assert the Divinity of Christ, and how to convey God's love for Muslims.

I am curious to know what people think of Islam, and what our stance should be as Christians, perhaps even particular as Byzantine/Orthodox Christians, since so much of our history has intersections with Islam. I very much want to hear what my friends on this forum have to say about this issue.

I have seen Byzantine & Orthodox Christians take basically two stances towards Islam:

1) IT is a religion of fear & violence at its root, hell bent on destroying Christians and Jews, deeply mysoginist, and a greater threat than the old Soviet Union ever was.

2) Islam can be our partner in the culture wars. They worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and though mistaken in their view of Christ, they are nevertheless our cousins in the faith, similar to Jews. We should not identify all of Islam with the militant and terrorist movements within Islam, and need to understand Islam better and dialog with the moderate element within Islam. Even if we say that Christ is the only way to salvation, we can recognize that many Muslims are good people with good family values, and deep reverence for God.

I acknowledge the two choices presented above are simplistic; yet I think it is fair to say most Christians lean toward one or the other of these views.

What do you all think of this? I am struggling with my conscious over these matters. On one hand, I really do have concerns regarding Islam, and I am not naive about the reality of "Islamo-Fascism" and terrorism in our world. Yet, something does not feel right in my heart being so black and white about Muslims either.

I removed a link to a quite excellent Christian site from my own blog, because the other Christian site had several articles extremely critical of Islam. I do not necessarily disagree with these articles, but I see my blog as a place for potential dialogue, and a place for sharing the beauty of the Byzantine faith. I am not sure I want to get into polemics on my site. I want to encourage dialogue, not shut it down.

What do you all think? I am very open to learning from you all, and accepting spiritual counsel on this matter.

Blessing,


Lance

"the ultimate white man's religion."

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That young man should go tell them and see what they think.

Prayer is the first and best answer for folks like that poor confused young man.

I had wanted to share with him about the African Church Fathers... People do not know Church history that well...

I am thinking he is not as familiar with the history, to compare and contrast, of Islam and Christianity in sub-saharan Africa.

Tell him about the blacks shipped into slavery to this very day from the east African coast by his Islamic Arab brethren. Or the black christians murdered by the troops loyal to Idi Amin in Uganda. Or the genocide of christian blacks in Darfur.

CHRISTIANITY was started principly by a group of Jews, and Prime above them, Jesus the CHrist, a Jewish man. Its first adherants where Jewish, and of Semetc origin, and woudl hve shown in their Olive skinned complexion.

Jesus was likely not wite, nor where the 12 Apostles, or later originalk Disiples.

The Greeks themselves arne't totally white either, and many of the firts converts outide of Judaism where in Africa and Arabia.

Europe grew slowr to Christ, dispite it beign late the Fortrsss of Christianity.

That said, if you asked me what I think of Islam, I think only this, that it is wrong, but not so woefully as others.

Those who critisise it and say that Islam follows a diffrent god are mistaken, but simply because they worship the same God that we do doens't eman that they are correct in their view about God.

In who and what God is, his exact relationship to mankind and the world, Salvaiton, and the person of Jesus CHrst, they are much mistaken, but otherwise, they worhsip the same God.

Where they ae mistaken, they shoudl be corrected gently and out of love.

Where they aren't mistaken, where they are shown to hold values that the CHrist emphasised, they ar eot be praised.

Otherwise, treat each as an individual.

Your over-Zealous new aquainence was perhaps overeager, but I am mor eocncerned with his Racism agaisnt white men, and his Anti-Americanism ( Assumign he has this.)

As a Brit of ocruse Ive espoused some Anti-American sentiment, but, mine is more of a paternal chiding, not an outright concemnation on the United States.

It always makes me wonder why thoe who liv ein a land that is so free so hate it.

While I understand the point you are trying to make, and while I will agree that some Greeks have dark complexions, as do some Italians, some Jews, and alot of Middle Eastern peoples in comparison to Northern Europeans, we are are all still considered part of the 'white'/European race.



Jews come from many different tribes, and their colourings actually vary quite a bit. Jesus may have been a light brown haired, fair complexioned, blue eyed Jew, or He may have been an olive skinned, black eyed, black haired Jew!!

--Just FYI...

Alice

Jews in firts century Palistine more than likely hadd middle-eastern features.

The Jews came only from oen tribe, really, the Tribe of Judah, from which the name originated, which itsself came from the middle east.

With the pourity of the peopel paramunt after the Babylonain Captivity, they dodnt' even accept the Samaritains, so its highly dubtful tha much mixing took place at the time of our Lord.

As tot he Greeks, my point was nto to insult thm of course, or you, but to reveal that the whole "White mans religion' Cncpt is a bit silly.

Christianity is a faioth of all ethnicities, and which doens't really follow a single race, and even race itsself is much harder to define than people really think.

I'm as white as th driven snow, but that doesn't mean that soemoen is less caucasion than me of they arne't. Howver, they'd obviosuly ave Genes for more Melenine than I do.

The Greeks also benefited form being closer to the middle east and africa, and some interbreedin did occure by this route.

Nevertheless, the Greeks , Italians, British, Chinese, Africans, and all other races, ar eone in Christ.

Incedentlaly, there are white Muslims.

Of course there are, though not all of them started out as Wisconsin Lutherans, as one of my colleagues did.

Islam is diverse. The current trend of radicalism is destructive, though there are many moderate Muslims who do not share the extremists' worldview. We must be careful as some characteristics may be atavistic, especially in poorer tribal communities, such as if the radical Islamist population comes to a critical mass and tightens the noose on the non-Muslim population. This has happened before in various stages of Islamic history and it could happen again in certain areas. We may have major problems in the future as the tribal culture is coming into play in Europe. A little of what may be in store for Europe and America has been showing itself in various forms. Such as when in Germany when a judge dismissed the case of a woman seeking an expedient divorce by quoting the Qur'an and suggesting that her husband was justified. The flirting in Ontario with giving Sharia law jurisdiction in some matters and the riots in Paris both hint to incommensurable difference between certain interpretations of Islam and Western society.

It would not be in our best interests to say that there is a universal Islam of peace and love so that religion plays no role when bombs are strapped to children. There are moderates and extremists. Moderate Islam is not always cheerfully joined with Judeo-Christian values, but there is room for a common respect. An honest pursuit of God's will is a virtue, even if it is not a Christian virtue.

When I speak to Muslims about faith I am careful to keep the topic on theology. I will not discuss history or make any reference to modern terrorism.

Terry

Here's something I posted a long time ago:

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/52991#Post52991

The title is "Is Christianity a White Man's Religion?"

Terry, Here's [nytimes.com] an article that provides further information about the subsequent removal of the German judge. And this [cbc.ca] makes it clear that Sharia won't fly in Ontario. Rioting in Paris was apparently due to poor conditions [frontpagemag.com] in housing projects; this combined with a perception that the police were targeting Muslims when two young people fled and were subsequently electrocuted because they had hidden in a sub-station and were electrocuted.

A better example may have been the large group of Somali Muslims currently in Minnesota and a lack of understanding that religious freedom applies to all; therefore, cab drivers may not require their fares to adhere to Sharia law. Or perhaps the refusal of cashiers in SuperTarget to handle pork products. Then again, Somalia is a Muslim country and people weren't used to putting their religion aside in the workplace as there was no need to do so. And they cite "religion" for "cultural traditions" not realizing that other Muslims have different traditions.

It is one of the greatest threats to the human race today.
That is what I think about it.
Stephanos I

Dear Lance,
Try to get hold of a copy of "The Islamist" by Ed Husain. It shows how the religion of Islam has been largely hijacked by politically motivated fanatics. The author is a British Muslim who was seduced into this kind of radicalism, but left when he realised what it leads to (his sister was minutes away from being killed in the London bombings). He has reverted to the Sufism he was brought up with, which is the peace-loving religion of Islam.

Hey Lance,

A litte off topic, but ANOTHER Ron Paul supporter? You must attract Ron Paul supporters like crazy!

Actually, there are two Ron Paul signs on my street in Blaine, and I meet supporters all around too, but he can't win any stinking primaries.

Time for me to put my tinfoil hat on and start thinking conspiracy....


As far as considering how to view Islam, I've thought about it a lot too. On a fundamentalist board I visit, they thinkthe Muslims are go to bed at night thinking about how they can kill us all.

While the religion is a religion founded by the sword and is definately false, I think the economic situation in many Muslim countries contribute to the extremism (which is why we haven't seen a lot of extremist Muslims in the US, because their economic condition is improved).

Just my thoughts, I could be way off.

Nathan

PS My brother, who is a Captian in Iraq right now is now officially a Ron Paul supporter as well!

Nathan,


I think you are right in your assessment that the religion was originally spread with the sword, that there are moderates and extremist, and that economic conditions play a part in fueling the jihadism.

I also like Terry's advice about keeping discussion with Muslims on theology.

This young Somali Man seemed very enthusiastic and convinced about Ron Paul. I suppose if you come from a context of tyranny, Paul's limited government message has great appeal.

Blessings,

Lance

I have great respect for Islam (or more appropriately al-Islam) and there is much that is commendable in it, but what is commendable in it is taken from Christianity. If you sit down and examine Islam you will find several contradictions between what is taught in the Quran and what is practiced by just about every Muslim.

If you want some good cannon fodder, research three things: 1.) the life of Mohammed and how his life stacked up against the principles of Islam; 2.) the Muslim view of the afterlife; and 3.) the differences among the various sects of Islam.

I'd recommend picking up a copy of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Islam. Any well-catechized Catholic will have no trouble identifying Islam's weak points by reading this.

If the young man you spoke to wants a religion that is "less white" point him to the Ethiopian Church, which pre-dates Islam.

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I can't agree with Islam's belief that Mohammed was the last Prophet. Jesus Christ is God and this cannot be denied. Islam won't accept this.

In the Koran, there are (allegedly) 99 words for Allah, but Father is not one of them.

I believe radical Islam is not the majority of Islam's adherents, but they can do considerable damage.

I cannot separate the history of Islam from Islam itself. The history of Islam speaks for itself. The forces of Islam fought wars of conquest, conquering much territory - much more than it holds today.

My six day old baby boy is the descendant of the nations of Queen Isabella and King Jan Sobieski. That says it all.

LET me make a correction, MR. Clean.

Islam doens't have 99 words for God, it has 99 namesfor God. Obviously Father is not one of them, because Father isn't even a name of God in Christianity.

Any mroe than me calling my own Father "Father" is his name, or a Priest beign addressed as "Father" is a statement that his name is Father.

The title of Father implies a progenetor or authority over one, who guides oens growht and development, and helps usher one into the world. But it is not a name.

Now, most ( but remarkabely nto all) Muslism woudl also deny the Fathership of God, thinkign it render shim too Human, but the basic concept behind we as Christaisn callign him Father is that he is ur Creator, and most Muslims would accept this, even shoudl they not share the termenology.

This said, although I disagree with Islam, I do not see it as the greatest evil the world has ever known, and I can think upon Islamic hisotyr with less of a slant int he direction fo dseeign them as Conquering Barbarians.

It is true that much f Islamic territory was conquered, but so too was most of the ORman EMoire, yet the ROman Empire is not known soley for its COnqueast of lands, and once the land was COnquered, the inhabitants where given full Roman CItesenship.

Although modenr ISlamic Republcis are often dictaatorial, in the past, many Isamic Regemes where acutlaly not so stern and oppressive as their modern counterparts, and, although I woudl not praise the Ottoman Empire, or much of Islamic Europe's invasion and conqueast, I woudl sya that often Christains where allowed ot live in Muslim occupied areas with only moderate inconveneince or the itme period, such as payign of a tax, and in most cases beign ineligable for public office. ( SUrprisingly, though, this isn't even true of all ISlamic contorled areas, and sme did allow Christaisn to advance, provided they posed no threat to the Islamic identity of the land.)

Now, it is true that Muslims conquered territory, but they did more htna just conwquer, and we shoudl be midnful fo this.


All of this said, if I coudl I would convert every last Muslim to Christ, for this is the truth, and the way ot their Salvation.

I see ISlam as I do any other HEresy, with only one Unique mark abotu it. Most of the Heresies of old emerged from direclty within the Churhc herself, such as Arianism, from a PReist in Alexandria, or Montanism, which stared alsoo form A PResbyter.

Islam was inspired by CHristainity, and the bulk of the Koran is nothign but Muhammad retelling either Biblcial narratives ( with some modificaiton in many of them) or copying Christain virues and expandign upon them, with mixed results form a Christain perspective.

The difference is, Muhammad was neither a member of the clergy within the Churhc, nor a layman within Christendom, and had, ot myknowledge, nto even been Baptised for the remisison of his sins.

He as from without the Church, not form Within.

But his ideas emergd from Christainity, and had their been no Christendom, there woudl have been no Islam.

Thus, Islam is simply another Heresy.

And the correction to all Heresy is orthodox teahcing.


Mormonism, in my mind, falls intot he same category, it is a HEretical movement no differnt than Arianism or Mancheinism.

THus I approahc Mormons as simply misguided by Heresy, and ISlam I appriach the same way, though I am mindful fo the sdistioncion. Mormonism, Arianism, Montanism, all emerged from direclty within the Chrisain context, and all consider themselves Christain, and share a good deal withthe Christain culture. Islam, although inspitred by Christendom, and with its ideas copied form Christendom, started form without, and has a cultural basis that is not intrinsically Christian.


It is interestign, though, that both the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, and the Prophet of Mormonism, Joeseph Smith, Jr., taugh thtat Jesu and God where distinct beigns. Although Smith taugh that Jesus as also divine, he taught that we coudl acheive the same sttus, and that Jeuss is our Elder Brother. Muhammad taught also that Jeuss wa slike us, but had no concept of Humanity prgressing o a divine state through Eternal progression, and God was transcendant and above all.

Still, there are parrallels within Mormonism and Islam, and with Muhammad and Joseph Smith Jr., and if you do a bit of research, you will see common strands in all Heresy, and common strands that show hwo they emerge.

To sclose, though, I will say that Islam is not the greatest evil in our modern world, modern proggressive thought and Humanism are. Though Humanists dny such links, and clam their philosophy has doen no evil, the Philosophy of Humanism and is predesessor ideologies which emerged form the Enlightenment that place all value on what thye narrowly defien as Human reason and a need for liberation fromt he old order to create a society centred aroudn mankind, and his needs, has given us the rise of SOcialism, Communism, and the ideal that the State should be the final arbitor of all things.

By placing the ultimate emphais on mankind, and sayign mankind must put its effort sonly into meeting the needs of humanity today, andnot on a Diety, they remove God, and the focus is usually not on meetign Hunanities spiritual or evn Psycological needs, but percieved needs, which eventually grows to inlude wants and desirs, all of hwich woudl be accepted.

THe focus is also on the demand to meet the needs and demands of everyone, and yet findign a way for ociety to hold togather and remain unified. Since Humanism has removed traditional religiosu support, and the traditional societal values, there remains nohting fo the society to use as a common refernece to buld a standard code of conduct from which peoel know how to behave, and so a new one must be established, and usually is in the form of the progresive mroal codes, as taught to us by the State. The State also asusmes the responcibikity of carignfor each citesen and meetign their needs, thus replacing everythign form Churhces to charities.

And the State usually meets the needs of the mases by means of wealth redictibution, and the Govenrment gainign contorle of the means of manufacture and distirbution, as well as taking money form the workers to finance social plans who are ostentatiosuly foudned ot help everyone in need btu int he end become large, soulelss beurocracies that end up dehumanising everyone, as th hwole of society is seen as a mass that th State must regulate, and thepeopel beocme dependant upon the state which tells them what to do and who grants them their needs.


This is the greaest evil in our time, not ISlam.

Oh, and sorry for the rambling post above.

I whole heartedly concur. The greatest evil facing us at the moment is secular humanism. It is a war between those who believe in a supernatural world and those who don't.

Actually, it is was simple Athiesm, hst woudln't be as bad.

Humanism, however, is not mere Athesm, and comes with a hot of other presumptions that do not merley preclude Supernatural invovlement, and goes well beyind mere naturalism.


Modern Secular Humanism als emphasises the meetign of humanitys needs today as a cheif end, and defines mankinds needs in terms of a vauge ideal of progress and development of full potential, as well as mateiral security.

And, it always inclues int he ideal of prigress and developign oens full potential the ability to expeince what gives one pleasure, and so the emphasis o the devaluation of a traditional marirage structure and chastity, becase they are seen as constraints on one pursuing that which woudl give one pleausre. Althoguh most Humaists nowadays woudl see Marirgae as an agreed ot contract and adultery as wrong, they see nothign wrogn with concentung adults giving eahc other seual pleasure if neither party is so attatcked.

And this is merley one example. Muhc of Secular Huanism is bse dupon meeting mans desire for pleasure for the sole end of gratifyign man, which is short sighted, and often dangerous, but fits their beleif in meeting mans needs today.

Likewise, the concept within Secular Humanism that is th emost dangerous is that of giving the state, which represents the people, the ultimate power to make the moral and cultural bonds that link us, which is created by the state in a fashion tht is often arbitrary, exceot that it flows formt h same Humanist presumptions.

The State then becides for us what is and is not moral, and what is and what is not expected of us in society.

Then, the State is given controle of the wealth of the society, to distribute it to all, so that everyoen has enouh money and rescurses to live adequately. This is done int he name of the peopel as a whole, sicne the Govenrment in a Humanist framework always represents the people.

This means that in order for me to get food, shelter, medical care, and money to buy anyhtign else with, I'd need to go tot he State to provide this fr me, and the State woudl ultimatley be my supplier, and I'd be limite din what I get to what they had to offer, as well as, oftne, restircitosn on how it is to be used bse don what they have decided.

This means i become wholly dependant upon the State for my existance and continued lifestyle, which is often dictated by the State.

Thus, the Stste contorles the educaitn I recieve, the entertainment I watch, and the amount of money I get.

The STate also uses a lot fo the redistributed ealth to builld masive social progrmmes to ensure htis contorle and ot delegate thoseneeds.


This is te root of SOcialism, and Humanism is in the end the Philosophy from which the assumption f socialism began.

I have never met a Humanist who did not have such inclinaitons, because it is inherant in their philoosphy.

I have met plenty of Ahtits, though, that do not beleive int he above.

While far from being an expert on Islam, I think there is something to St. John of Damascus' recognition of Islam as a Christian Heresy. Further Islam has always struck me as a running away from the freedom of Christ back to a law, and again therefore something of a heresy.

I would have ot agree wth St. John of Damascus.

I find ISlam a Heresy, but a Unique one. It is a Heresy from without. Most Heresies emerged from within Christianity, but Muhammad himself was never a Christian. His ideals, principles, and teachigns are clearly of Christian Origin, but they also display some oddities that came from outside of Christendom, and in and of itsself Islam emerged external to Christianity dispite the obvious borrowing of theological concepts and doctrinal and moral teachings, some of which Muhammad expanded.

In this way, even Mormonism is not like Islam, as, though both started with the emergence of a Climed Prophet, Smith came form a Culture thta was stringly Christian and considered himself a Christian, unlike Muhammad, and smiths ideas only gradulaly lead into strange facets, whereas Muhammads always ocntainedd some.

Hey there, Lance,

I think Islam is another religion. I don't believe in parts of it, but I think it can succeed in bringing people closer to God for those who practice it.

I think Islam believes that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I think they believe that their victory over all others (including Christians) is Divinely assured.

I think Islam has been the opponent and often the enemy of Christianity. I think Islam is still the opponent --and, in some quarters, it is still the enemey-- of Christianity.

I think Islam is a dubious partner against secularism because I think Islam will always be calculating how to convert or destroy Christianity. Put another way, I think Muslims firmly believe that we Christians are wrong; I think Muslims believe that secular humanism is proof that we are wrong; and I think Muslims believe that they just need to wait for Christianity to die out -- maybe with a little help-- and they will pick up the pieces.

I think ordinary Muslims can be good neighbors, but I think radical Islam is one of the greatest threats to the world today.

I think that normal Muslims are willing to work with normal Christians to stop radical Muslims.

But, I think that all the Muslims (including the normal ones) will always be calculating about how to ultimately beat us.

In short, I think Islam is 600 years behind us. In the year 1408, I think a lot of Christians felt and believed like many Muslims think and feel today. Maybe things will change in the future for Islam, given enough time and modernization. And maybe not.

-- John

http://www.malaysia-today.net/2008/content/view/438/46/

Great blog by a great man. He is, in my idea, a good Muslim.

Islam is just another Christian heresy, and is actually a death cult.

Harsh words, yes, but one should separate Muslims from the teachings, I mean the ACTUAL teachings of Islam.

There are many good people who are Muslims, but Islam is about conquest, suppression and death.

Anyone who objectively reads Muslim history, even from Muslim sources (which are highly whitewashed) cannot help but come to that objective conclusion.

I do NOT think that 'normal' Muslims are willing to work with normal Christians to stop radical Muslims. They won't even speak out against them.

Just my two cents, based on experience.

Hi,

I think Islam is an important religion and those who profess it are to be respected.

I think, historically, Islam was a key factor in the development of civilization, just as Judaism and Christianity.

Many good things have come from peoples in which Islam is the dominant religion. Contributions from Islamic societies to math, chemistry, medicine, literature, among others, are invaluable.

Many bad things have come from peoples in which Islam is the dominant religion... which can also be said about peoples in which Christianity is the dominant religion and radical Islam is not much worse than fundamentalist Christianity (including Catholicism and Orthodoxy), when it comes to cause pain and suffering.

I think I have much more in common with a devout Muslim than with a lukewarm Catholic, especially when this "Catholic" agrees with the fundamental postmodern assumtion that there is no objective truth and there is no objective good or evil.

Yes, nowadays it has become fashionable among some Muslims to hijack their religion to justify unspeakable atrocities. However, we must not forget that a few decades ago there was a similar movement among some Evangelical Christians to justify the bombing of abortion clinics and another one, a few centuries ago, which made heretics of any political adversary to justify burning them on the stake in the name of God.

I do not consider Islam to be the enemy. The real enemy is this radical atheism and relativism we have allowed to grow within our own religious camp. The enemy is not at the gates, it is already inside the walls.

Shalom,
Memo

The real enemy is always my self

Islam was founded after Christ established the Church, so, so regard Islam as a 'good' religion or to say that God would use Islam to make people holier is to in effect say that Christ's Sacrifice was not enough. Individual people who happen to be Muslim are children of God, who God loves, and He will act on their individual souls to draw them to himself to the degree they allow it. But, this is for each indivual. Islam and other religions are man-made efforts to reach God and cannot be equated with Christianity which is God's effort to reach man.

Beautifully said--especially the last line! WOW!

Someone from the Melkite/Antiochian/Maronite/Syriac churches should be able to give a clearer assessment on this. They've been in contact with a Muslim environment longer than most of us have(I'm no legit Melkite yet, but I live in a country where its the official religion) and I suppose we should hear their opinions out.

Wait, am I too late? Or should I say something?

I tend to agree with the second view, with reservations about the first sentence, but really disagree with only the last phrase in the first. 'Islamo-fascism' is a media/political invention/scare tactic and the solution to terrorism is to mind one's own business, not station troops in Muslim countries (the reason given for 9/11 - 'they hate freedom' is rubbish; nobody flew planes into buildings in Stockholm) and stop propping up Israel. (I'm libertarian and 'isolationist' without apology - but the real isolationism is to start wars of conquest over the objections of most other countries.)

Islam is to Christianity like Mormonism centuries later, related to it but a later invention that is no longer Christian. As Brendan Ross explained years ago there is at least some crossover with/theft from Eastern Christianity: the mosque is an Eastern Christian church with its altar and icons removed for example and in some cases the Eastern Christians had the practice first (prostrations?).

With Rome I agree that a born Muslim or anybody acting in good conscience can be saved, like in the Narnia books when the general serving Tash was really serving Aslan all along and didn't know it.

Lance,

I am afraid that Isalm is closer to your first proposed stance. Islam is a threat to the Westen society and Christendom today because it is a civilization, a politics and an educational system, and not merely a �religion.�

Hilaire Belloc predicted the future rise of Islam in his book The Great Christian Heresies. In fact Belloc, writing in the first half of the 20th century summed up the West's thinking on Islam as follows:


"Millions of modern people of the white civilization-that is, the civilization of Europe and America- have forgotten all about Islam. They never come in contact with it. They take for granted that it is decaying, and that, anyway, it is just a foreign religion which will not concern them. It is, as a fact, the most formidable and persistent enemy which our civilization has had, and may at any moment become as large a menace in the future as it has been in the past."


In his book Belloc classifies Islam as a Christian heresy.

Belloc states "It began as a heresy, not as a new religion....It was a perversion of the Christian religion...an adaptation and a misuse of the Christian thing."


Unlike all the other heresiarchs "[T]he chief heresiarch, Mohammed himself, was not, like most heresiarchs, a man of Catholic birth, and doctrine to begin with. He sprang from pagans. But that which he taught was in the main Catholic doctrine, oversimplified. It was the great Catholic world - on the frontiers of which he lived, whose influence was all around him and whose territories he had known by travel-which inspired his convictions."


"Thus the very foundation of his teaching was that prime Catholic doctrine, the unity and omnipotence of God."


"But the central point where his new heresy struck home with a mortal blow against Catholic tradition was a full denial of the Incarnation."


"He taught that our Lord was the greatest of all the prophets, but still only a prophet; a man like other men. He eliminated the Trinity altogether."


"In other words, he, like so many lesser heresiarchs, founded his heresy on simplification...Simplicity was the note of the whole affair; and since all heresies draw their strength from some true doctrine, Mohammedanism drew its strength from the true Catholic doctrines which it retained: the equality of all men before God--"All true believers are brothers."


"The Mohammedan movement was essentailly a "Reformation," and we can discover numerous affinities between Islam and Protestant Reformers- on Images, on the Mass, on Celebacy, etc."

-- Taken from The Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East, by William Dalrymple

"Today the West often views Islam as a civilisation very different from and indeed innately hostile to Christianity. Only when you travel in Christianity's Eastern homelands do you realise how closely the two are really connected, the former growing directly out of the latter and still, to this day, embodying many aspects and practices of the early Christian world now lost in Christianity's modern Western-based incarnation. When the early Byzantines were first confronted by the Prophet's armies, they assumed that Islam was merely an heretical form of Christianity, and in many ways they were not so far wrong: Islam accepts much of the Old and New Testaments and venerates both Jesus and the ancient Jewish prophets.

Significantly, the greatest and most subtle theologian of the early church, St. John Damascene, was convinced that Islam was at root not a separate religion, but instead a form of Christianity. St. John had grown up in the Ummayad Arab court of Damascus, where his father was chancellor, and he was an intimate boyhood friend of the future Caliph al-Yazid; the two boys' drinking bouts in the streets of Damascus were the subject of much horrified gossip in the streets of the new Islamic capital. Later, in his old age, John took the habit at the desert monastery of Mar Saba where he began work on his great masterpiece, a refutation of heresies entitled the Fount of Knowledge. The book contains an extremely precise and detailed critique of Islam, the first ever written by a Christian, which, intriguingly, John regarded as a form of Christian heresy related to Arianism: after all Arianism, like Islam, denied the divinity of Christ. Although he lived at the very hub of the early Islamic world, it never seems to have occurred to him that Islam might be a separate religion. If a theologian of the stature of John Damascene was able to regard Islam as a new- if heretical- form of Christianity, it helps to explain how Islam was able to convert so much of the Middle Eastern population in so short a time, even though Christianity remained the majority religion until the time of the Crusades.

The longer you spend in the Christian communities of the Middle East, the more you become aware of the extent to which Eastern Christian practice formed the template for what were to become the basic conventions of Islam. The Muslim form of prayer with its bowings and prostrations appears to derive from the older Syrian Orthodox tradition that is still practised in pewless churches across the Levant. The architecture of the earliest minarets, which are square rather than round, unmistakably derive from the church towers of Byzantine Syria. The Sufi Muslim tradition carried on directly from the point that the Christian Desert Fathers left off while Ramadan, at first sight one of the most foreign and alienating of Islamic practices, is in fact nothing more than an Islamicisation of Lent, which in the Eastern Christian churches still involves a gruelling all-day fast."

My thought has not change! It is the work of the devil.
Stephanos I

Stephanos, withthat attitude of yours, how will you cponverse with Muslism to convert them?

I woudl rather say that Muhammad was misguided, which in itself may offend Muslims, but they say that the Churhc Fathers where misguided or diliberate frauds.

If, however, I show respect to the Muslim, they will reciprocate.

I do not think that Islam is any mor hte work fo the Devil than Montanism, which also emerged with a Prophet, or Mancheinism, another Prophetically elergent sect. Mormonism also arose form this same end.

But Mormons arne't evil, and Im sure Menancheians and Montanisst wherne't either.

They where simply misguided.

The Muslim is simply within a system that is at odds with truth and needs gentle correction. But they see us as the way I just desciebed, as in error, and in need of correction.

So it is best to simply present he cause of CHrist, and be witness to him, especially in how we live the faith.

Dear Zarove,

Stephanos is a priest of the Roman Catholic Church. Please be more respectful when addressing him.

He is refreshingly honest and forthright with his feelings, and has challenged me to think about my true feelings on more than one occasion.

If he (and anyone else for that matter) cannot be honest here, among fellow Christians, where on earth else could he be?

Alice, Moderator

I didnt ask him not tp be hoenst, and did show him respect. I di dnot know he was a Priest, but my point remains.

We cannot simply lable Islam "The work of the Devil" and leave it at that. Our mission as Christians is to save the lost and to live accordign to Chrits dictates. Jesus woudl have simply corrected their errors, and this si what I'd seek to do.

Islam shoudl be treated as any other Heresy, and in that way corrected, rather than sen as Demonic.

Dear friends,

without saying for sure that all heretics are damned, I think it is safe to say that all heresies have been inspired by Satan, that is, Satan is the author not only of deception and confusion, but of division.

So even if adherents of a particular sect might be "good" people, or might in fact, in individual situations, find a ray of grace unto salvation, I think it is safe to say that deviations from orthodoxy have diabolical influences. Satan opposes truth.

Islam has a demonic origin, in the sense that it is based on a false revelation. That does not mean that we have to tell Muslims to their face they are demon influenced. We can respect them, love them, and share Christ with them. I know good Muslim people, some of whom put some Christians to shame. Individual Muslims might be good people, with good basic values, but they are still in need of the saving work of Christ.

Our faith clearly states that the Lord Jesus Christ is God and the final revelation of God, and Islam comes along and says no, he isn't, that Muhammed is the final prophet. These doctrines cannot both be true. We then must conclude that the Enemy has perpetrated a falsehood.


Blessings,


Lance

Thank you Alice! I for one can be honest as to what I think about something. That does not carry over how I treat someone.
I always treat people with respect.
I have very many friends among protestants, who hold me very dear and near to them, but they still know my opinons about protestantism, as I have to listen to theirs about Catholicism.
Stephanos I
Anything which is contrary to the truth is in effect somehow the work of the devil. He is the author of lies and divisive spirits, is he not?

On the note above, it is not that they claim Muhammad was the last prophet that conradicts Christianity to be insurmountable to any unity with it, but their cliam regardign Jesus Christ.

Many Christian groups beleive that all Mirales ended at the close of the Apostolic age, and other still deny Prophets while allowing the occassional healing.

Within the Orthodox and Catholic Chruches though, Prophets have come since the time of Christ Jesus, althugh their revelatiosn are not required to be eblive damong the faithful.

Nevertheless, Muhammads claim to be the last Prophet, while still bothesome to Chrustendom, is not the greatest contention Islam and Christianity share with each other. Rather, it is their claim that Jesus himself was a Prophet, and not the son of God. They dny th eIncarnaiton, and Jesus as the living word, as well as the Atonement.

This is the vital differenc ein terms of Christ Jesus, not the Prophethood of Muhammad.

I am well aware of what muslims believe.
And I am well aware what Protestants and Orthodox believe.
Stephanos I
And I am well aware of what such groups like Mormons, JW's and Adventists believe.

The January edition of the "One" Magazine from the Catholic Near East Association had a very interesting article about Islam entitled, "A Common Word Between Us and You."

The preface states: "On 13 October 2007, a year after 38 Muslim scholars sent an open letter to Pope Benedict XVI, 138 Muslim religious leaders addressed an open letter and call to the pope and other leaders of the Christian churches concerning the common ground between Christianity and Islam. This landmark document, with its Quranic exegesis, boldly identifies love of the one God and love of neighbor as common and core values for Judaism, Christianity and Islam."

http://www.cnewa.org/mag-article-bodypg-us.aspx?articleID=3308

Ray

I would of told him that I have no guilt over what a bunch of Anglo-Saxons did to blacks, my ancestors at the time were themselves slaves to the Tsar. I also would of told him it was Arab invaders (and arabs are white for those of you who didnt know) who spread Islam to Africa.


"most good"? I find the way they treat their females to be disgusting. As far as theology is concerned they are wrong and follow a false prophet, but perhaps an alliance of convinence with the moderates would be acceptable under certain circumstancs. Such as fighting off government sponsored secular atheism in Western society.

Sadly Islam is a death cult, bent on world domination. That is what history tells us. That is what statistics tell us.

And, after all, that is what many Muslims tell us!

Why is that so hard to understand?

When talking about certain people who are Muslims, of course, there are those who love God and their neighbor, but will not lift a finger, even in a free society, to dispute with those who believe your choices are Islam or death/Dhimmitude.

All in all, lets just believe what Muslims themselves right about Islam, what statistics tell us about Islam, and that history tells us about Islam.

Islam is a cult, bent on death, destruction and domination by violence.

After all, how many Muslim missionaries have there been in history WITHOUT weapons...oh yeah, NONE.

Im am NOT making any statement by the following but found it very interesting.
Today we had a presentation about the vision by Juan Deigo of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

I found it interesting that the BVM was standing on a crescent moon which was for the people of that time a symbol of evil.
And that the name Guadalupe is an arabic compositon from Spain, meaning Guada = River and Lupe = Light.

Stephanos I

Our Lady of Guadalupe pray for us and deliver us from all oppression, evil and acts of violence.

What is the percentage of the worlds' conflicts that involve muslims? Isn't is something like 85+%?

So much for the "religion of peace".

sounds dodgy. arabic for 'light' is 'nour'/'nur', i believe.

Yes, "Noor/Nour/Nur" are some of the words for "light".

Using the Nicene Creed as an example, lets examine:

"Light from light, true God from true God..." is recited in Arabic as "noorin min noor, Ilaahin (h)aq min Ilaahin (h)aq..."

8 Die in Shooting at Jerusalem Seminary

http://news.aol.com/world

Click on the link. This story is less than two hours old. The celebrations by the Palestinians color my reaction. Anyone who would go to a religious house of worship and celebrate terrorist acts against people with prayers of thanksgiving . . . !!! Anyone who would pass out sweets to others driving by in cars to celebrate such a horrible terrorist act . . . !!!

Rather reinforces the bloodthirsty verses found in the Koran that these people use to justify vioence against Christians and Jews. That's why, for me, the calls to see these people as part of the Abrahamic faiths are pure hollow posturing.

BOB

I have not yet read the Qur'an, though I still have my free copy from CAIR (they were giving them out). There was a verse about dissent I saw in one of the books, would this mean that a lay-Muslim would not have the freedom to critically read the Qur'an?

Let's say, for example, that there is this one lay-Muslim who lives in a village dominated by radicals. He is well read and knows the Qur'an back and forth, but comes to disagreement with the interpretations or rhetoric that surrounds him. Would he have to play the actor to save his life?

If he were a Christian in a Western medieval fiefdom, I can't imagine he would receive the same treatment from those he dissents with.

Terry

Saying they sprang fromt he Abrahamic Faith is not the same as sayin they are peaceful.

That said, Radical Islam is not a measure of all Muslims, and nto all are Radical Muslims.

I can think of happenings during the reformation where people were driven out of towns, burned at stakes, and suffered other horrors, at the hands of supposed "christians".

The English martyr, Saint Margaret Clitherow, was "pressed to death" on Good Friday, 25 March 1586, at York. My understanding of this was that she lay down and large stones were piled upon her until she was crushed by the weight.

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Islam, or course, rejects the Divinity of Christ. They say he is a prophet, but not the the Son of God.

They are not supposed to have images, or the thought that earthly images can represent Holy things.

Yet they get bent out of shape by images of Mohamed.

In denying the Incarnation, and in denying any images, don't they deny that people are made in the image of God?

Therefore people can be abused, enslaved, and casually destroyed.

This seems to me to be the root of the problem, a lack of respect for life. Muslim opposition to abortion notwithstanding.

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God be thanked, I am not worthy of so good a death as this.

- Saint Margaret, when advised of her sentence

I die for the love of my Lord Jesu.

- Saint Margaret, when asked to confess her crimes before execution

The reformation was not medieval.

You are correct, but it wasn't an improvement in human relations.

The people of the Reformation learned the things they did from their history.

It was a time of polarization, a hard time where sons warred with their fathers, and brothers with their brothers.

There were deep roots that led to the Reformation, true.

The village I had in mind was more of the type imagined from Chaucer. There are elements of harshness, like a depiction of the persecution of the Flemish people; but the harshness was sporadically focused.

Terry