www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Glagolitic Mass

Alex mentioned the Glagolitic Mass so I did some Web research on google.com. Not only did the Czech composer Leos Janaček write music for it in the 1920s* but the 1912 Catholic Encyclopedia online** says Slavonic, not Latin, was used for the Roman Mass on the Adriatic coast at the time, for about 100,000 people in Dalmatia and lower Croatia. I wonder how long that lasted — until the Novus Ordo? I imagine modern Croatian replaced the Slavonic then. So... some southern Slavic Roman Catholics NEVER worshipped in Latin? Perhaps one of those little-known traditional Catholic facts, like that in Spanish countries people were exempted from abstaining from meat on Friday (a papal gesture of gratitude to some king of Spain), so one could eat meat on Friday in Spain and Argentina in the 1950s. Even sticking to traditionalism there is plenty of "diversity'.

*Lyrics are at http://www2.snowman.ne.jp/~hyamane/glagoltextcz.html

** http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14041b.htm
Also http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06575b.htm

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dalmatia is one of those border areas between east and west, and the only (I think) Latin area that had Byzantine "pollution" (I mean that in a kind way) as opposed to Byzantine communities with Latin influences.

This area was in dual communion with Rome and Constantinople up until the 1400's. The Latin language became largely standard before the Council of Trent and the hybrids in the liturgical practices were eliminated before that time as well (such as the vernacular) in response first to the Bogomils and then the Venetian takeover. The Venetians first acquired the Archdiocese of Split, but the reform came later to the Archdiocese of Dubrovnik, however, the independent Republic of Zeta (under Dubrovnik) eventually went fully to Constantinople. The Dalmatian Archbishops were further inclined to adopt standard Latin practices by their power-quest to rule over certain Hungarian dioceses in competition with the Hungarian hierarchy. Obviously, they could make a better claim to rule over these dioceses if they followed the same practices that those dioceses and the Hungarians did. A few areas, mostly semi-independent tributaries of the Ottoman Empire, continued with the Latin liturgy and practices totally restored except for the language of the liturgy and the right of a parish priest to name their housekeeper and her children as his legal heirs.

This small exception from the standard use of the Latin language was highly honored by Rome, who, at first, was a great enemy of Venice and therefore opposed Venice's standardizations (my enemies, enemy is my friend...) and then to win them from Constantinople and the Ottomans.

In many ways the Vatican made a virtue out of a necessity, as these people were highly independent, and would have happily lived neither under Rome nor Constantinople. They later formed the bulk of the Yugoslav Old Catholic movement.

It should also be remembered that other exceptions existed. it was not unknown for our cousins the Slovak Roman Catholics to use Slovak rather than Latin and a number of parishes also adopted German. These were done with the very un-Irish attitude of "well, I'm sure if the Pope were here, he would approve."

K.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Kurt ]

I don't have all the pertinent facts at my fingertips (I'm writing from work), but I do know that there was a longstanding tradtion in Dalmatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina for some parishes to have the Mass and Sacraments in Slavonic. It was a privelege of the Franciscans that went back for centuries. It was the standard Roman Missal and Ritual, but in Slavonic. For centuries under the Turks the Franciscans were "THE" Church there and were basically cut off from the rest of the Church in many ways and did what they could to keep the Faith alive there. In the late 1800's when the usual diocesan structures were set up, they retained a lot of the old customs which were discarded by the diocesan clergy. Franciscan Press publishes a very interesting book about these customs and traditions in this area...when I get home tonight I'll post the title, author, etc. for this book.

Don

Dear Serge and Kurt,

(Somehow I never believed I would address you together in this way . . .).

This is all part of the fascinating heritage of Cyrillo-Methodian Christianity among the Slavs, to be sure.

Poland and the Czech lands first had the Byzantine Rite and only much later did the Latin Rite take over.

It was because of the ancient Byzantine heritage of Bohemia that John Hus could make the case against the Roman Rite, its Latin language that few western Slavs understood and other "foreign" traditions that wreaked havoc with his country's religious affairs.

It was really for this that Hus was condemned by the German authorities and why the Catholic Church of Germany is, today, so interested in exonerating him - a process which, thanks to His Holiness, is now underway.

This is also why the later Eastern rite movements among the Czechs took their inspiration from Hus and why Russian Orthodox theologians examining his era claimed him for Orthodoxy, and denied that he was the progenitor of Protestantism.

Believe it or not . . .

Alex

Dear Serge,

In addition, RC bishops have given permission to Catholics of Cajun and other French background (some parishes in Michigan) to consider musk-rat as a fish that can be eaten whenever one must abstain from "real meat."

Musk-rat is a popular delicacy, including, yes, musk-rat burgers.

The original petition said that it shared the same water as do fish . . .

Believe it or not.

Alex

Some christian slavs from Dalmatia and Croatia received an indult to use a modified version of the Tridentine Rite in Church Slavonic, which has a lot of eastern orthodox influence in chant an traditions but the rite is Roman.

I would like to know if you have information about the dalmatian christians and if there's a translation of the Divine Liturgy in that old language.

!Tuota nuester, che te sante intel sil: sait santificuot el naun to. Vigna la imparata toa. Sait fuot la vrera toa, coisa in sil, coisa in tiara. Duote costa dai el pun nuester cotidiun. E remetiaj le nuestre debete, coisa nojiltri remetiaime a i nuestri debetuar. E naun ne menur in ispitan, mui deliberiajne dal ral!

The Lord's Prayer in Dalmatian.

Thanks for the responses and for the sample of Dalmatian, which obviously was a Romance language similar to Italian. I don't think it ever was a liturgical language. It became extinct in 1898 ( http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/ital/dalmatian.html ).

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001FUS explains the Ds were romanized Illyrians (same stock as the Albanians) who eventually were absorbed into the Croats.

About the variety among Slavic apostolic Christians, by chance I recently went to a Mass in Polish. It was obvious congregational singing is a longstanding custom among Poles. Later a Polish-American friend told me that back in the good old days they would sing parts of the Mass like the Gloria in Polish while the priest prayed in Latin.

Thanks to new Ukrainian Catholic Don for the info on the Franciscans in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. This may in part explain the rivalry between the Franciscans and the Johnny-come-lately diocesan authorities there.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

What would you do without us Ukrainian Catholics?

I didn't know how to ethnically place "Don" but then it occurred to me that there are the Don Kozaks, the River Don, a Don deal . . .

You know the saying, "Blessed be he who takes no offense at me . . ."

Alex

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Friends,

In a similar vein I found this presenation of the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter at:
http://www.odox.net/Liturgy1-Peter.htm

I found this most fascinating. I relate it to the current topic becasue I wonder if they have a common origin. I have read and also been told by liturgy professors that while SS. Cyril and Methodius brought the Byzantine liturgy with them they allowed Roman elements to be mixed with it. Given their respect for the Pope, I wonder if this Liturgy of St, Peter is of their creation or influence? Given that it remains basically a Byzantine liturgy with the Roman Anaphora inserted, my conclusion would be that it was certainly possible. It seems very plausible that St. Methodius would simply use the Roman Anaphora within the Liturgy he was used to, rather than create a Byzantine-Roman hybrid as has been suggested in some books. Has anyone ever heard of this Liturgy before?

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Serge,

A little bit off the subject but....
I grew up right next door to a RC rectory staffed by those Croatian Franciscans.They Baptized my child and Confirmed me. I have many fond memories of them.Many of the parishioners were Damatica as my late mother-in-law would say including herself.Many have surnames that sound Italian.


Nicky's Baba

Yes, I once knew a lady (now passed away) who was born an Austrian citizen, Italian speaking and of Croatian ethnicity.

K.

Dear Lance,

Yes, the Liturgy of St Peter was (and may still be) very popular with the Old Believer groups in Russia (popovtsy, to be sure).

It was used by them on St Peter's Day, as is the Liturgy of St Mark on his Feast Day (which is used on and off in certain Greek parishes as well). And of course they use the Liturgy of St James three times a year.

The Liturgy of St Peter is of very ancient provenance, as you know better than I.

It and the Clementine Liturgy go "way back" and there certainly was a Clementine Rite influence in the East as this Rite was used throughout the Church at one point. It is entirely possible, as you posit, that St Peter's Anaphora could have come into the East this way, since the East was used to many anaphorae, as the Oriental Orthodox Churches have to this day (the Ethiopian and Syrian traditions have many anaphorae from many Saints).

The way the Syrians do this is by keeping the basic structure of their Liturgy but "install" different anaphorae in accordance with liturgical rubrics. There is no reason why the same pattern could not have been followed by the Byzantine Church, that is, installing the anaphora of St Peter into the Byzantine structure of its Liturgy.

While Sts. Cyril and Methodius looked to Rome for assistance in their missions, there seems to be little evidence to suggest that Rome was truly supportive of their work, especially owing to the Germanic anger over their spreading of the Byzantine Rite in areas the German Church felt belonged (by "rite") to it.

The case of the Glagolithic Rite could very well have been a situation of pastoral adaptation to the people and I think it was.

Certainly, this Rite was more culturally flexible with respect to the local Slavic traditions than the Roman Rite in Poland or Bohemia ever was.

Alex

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Many thanks for the info on the Liturgy of St Peter. So the Old Believers have a Byzantine Liturgy that uses the Roman (Gregorian) Canon! I'd never heard of that. That proves the age and authenticity of that anaphora, as well as the relatedness of all the apostolic Churches! Now I'll have to read up more on the popovci (like the church in Russia with its metropolitan in Moscow) and see if they use this.

Tell me more about the Clementine Rite. Is it an ancestor of the Roman Rite? The Byzantine? Both? Neither?

A read of the Ethnologue site (a list of all the languages of the world that can be viewed by country, with some basic info on each language) says there are a few thousand Italian-speakers in Croatia (even more than in Slovenia, which borders Italy) and some Venetian-dialect speakers on top of that. Perhaps they are ethnic Croatians and/or mixed Croat-Dalmatians.

Minor nitpick: I think the Glagolitic books aren't a rite bur rather a "use' of the Roman Rite (as I maintain about the Latin-language Sarum books of medieval England). They're the same as the Tridentine books but in the Slavonic language. Perhaps traditional indult Masses in Croatia today would be in Slavonic!

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

Yes, the jury is out on the matter of "rite" and "use." I don't know and I accept it as you say.

Perhaps what is more germane is the notion of defined community or even particular Church-ness. A particular Church can have the same or similar rite with some minor variations and still be "distinct." Perhaps that is how the Sarum Rite or Use should be viewed. One professor friend constantly talks about "Sarum Catholics."

The Clementine Liturgy is a long one, I have it in both Latin and an English translation by a fellow who may have taken some liberties with its final form. It is also in, if I am not mistaken, one of the volumes of the "Fathers of the Church".

If one compared it with the Roman and Byzantine liturgies, I don't know if one could say it is related to either in a definitive way.

Some scholars say it was, at one time, used widely throughout the Church, East and West.

The Clementine Liturgy does seem (and I am no liturgical scholar, Serge!) to have affinities with the Liturgy of St Hippolytus and the Gallican Liturgy of St John Cassian. To my simple mind, the Clementine Mass has a lot in common in terms of structure to the Liturgy of St James as well.

I say this because there seems to be a lot of prayer said by the bishop (I guess they assumed the bishop would be the main celebrant?).

My wife's priestly grandfather does an excellent job of explaining this Liturgy in his "Epiclesis" in Ukrainian.

I suppose it would be possible to "adapt" the Clementine Liturgy, just as the Greeks adapted the St James Liturgy, but then why would you want to?

It would definitely have an affinity for us Slavs who venerate St Clement so highly. Our ancestors loved to read his epistle in church as scripture, they read his Apostolic Constitutions and, almost certainly, the Clementine Liturgy would have been the one celebrated by the early Christian communities in Crimea where he ministered and where he was martyred. And, of course, St Vladimir declared him patron of Kievan Rus' and was buried with Anna in a chapel dedicated to St Clement. St Yaroslav the Wise (recently canonized) had an icon of St Clement included in the Cathedral of St Sophia.

Alex

Serge is correct, the so called Glagolitic Mass was merely the Roman Liturgy translated into Slavonic and printed using the Glagolitic script. I didn't get a chance to give the title of that book I mentioned yesterday...when I got home laid down for a nap and didn't wake up until 4:00 am this morning :-) Maybe transmogrifying into a Ukrainian wore me out??? I will try again tonight. And, yes, Serge, that is the reason for the stressed between the Franciscans in Croatia and Bosnia and the diocesan officials. If anyone was following the events at Medjugoria (sp. ?) they would know what I am talking about. It is the Franciscans who have that parish (transfered from one the Franciscan Third Order Regular to the Order of Friars Minor when the apparitions first started, if I remember correctly for "political" reasons) and the diocesan bishop never has given it official approval, even when pressure was applied by Rome. For the most part, because of their long history there and identification with the commmon folk, the Franciscans have the support of the people. It is an interesting history! God be with you all!

Don