www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Why do Romans head east?

Note: It is said that one may achieve Heaven not because of the Love of God but because of fear of His Just Punishments. The important thing is to get there.

Likewise, some Romans head east not out of a love of eastern spirituality, but because of heterodoxy in the diocese they left behind. Hopefully, they will come to love and embrace the Byzantine world nonetheless, even as the "saint" comes to know and love the Beatific Vision though he got there more from fear than Love.

For those raised in the eastern traditions, it is hard to comprehend the utter frustration of Romans fleeing east, but to help you grasp it a little, read on:
[b]AmChurch and Stockholm Syndrome[/b] [catholicexchange.com]

7/6/2005

Welcome to St. Joan of Arc's in Minneapolis, Minnesota, the quintessential "AmChurch" parish.

Aren't We Enlightened?

See Happy Pastor Rev. George Wertin profiled by an adoring parishioner on their Web site. He's a courageous rebel who "loves the cutting edge." Quotable quote: "He talked about loving Rome and his repeated visits to Italy � I asked him, 'Could you say, all roads lead to Rome?' He said, 'Yes, but not necessarily to the Vatican.'" Har har. The Old Guy in Rome is a joke, of course. He's not In Touch and Aware like Padre is.

Hear the Baby Boomer "History Begins and Ends with Us" story of Vatican II ("The excitement was tangible in those days and he says he knew he 'was witnessing history being made' during the years of John Kennedy and Pope John the twenty-third.")

See the self-congratulation: "We are 'not a parish just trying to protect ourselves and taking care of our own souls and being a holy and pious people � but a people involved and caring.'" (Being involved and caring, you see, is the opposite of holiness and piety.)

See the Enlightened Reading Selections full of Deep Insight for Thoughtful People:

� John Dominic Crossan, who informs us the body of Jesus was eaten by wild dogs.

� "The ministry of Jesus was first and only a social ministry."

� "Eisler takes us way back to the time of Goddess worship."

� "With the advent of a male god and the creation of the world's major religions we moved into a time, and continue to be in that time, of domination."

Aren't We Fabulous?

It's a beehive of activity at St. Joan's. No pro-life work, adoration, or ordinary Christian prayer, of course. But there is the neo-pagan eco-spirituality task force, the ingenious readings from Anne Morrow Lindbergh or somebody named Megan McKenna substituted for Scripture during Mass, the weekly guest homilist, the Hatha Yoga in the sanctuary, the staff bursting with gay pride, the mission statement indistinguishable from a Unitarian committee on Spelling Reform for Guatemala, the lectures asking "Is Jesus God?" with the refreshingly straightforward condescension of the apostate:

Our tradition teaches that Jesus was God come down to make up for and overcome this inaccessibility. Jesus "won back" for us that which was lost due to Original Sin. Jesus, therefore, has to be more than human...for if He is not actually God, then we are not really saved.

But the images of our childhood can no longer always work within our faith. The Roman Catholic "institutional leadership," however, continues to uphold these images.

And let's not forget the Confirmation graduates who boast that their faith is "a mix of Eastern Religion and Christianity. My beliefs and I have found a home. I am so proud that I was confirmed at SJA!'"

"So proud." Indeed, what comes through loud and clear is the clubby, suburban, back-slapping, "aren't we fabulous?" pride of the enterprise. It hits precisely the same notes as the gushy, lionizing, "Behold the Future of the Church!" puff pieces that were done on child molester Paul Shanley by his NewChurch adorers in the 1980s.

Stockholm Syndrome

But when the day comes when the parishioners are betrayed by somebody like Shanley who holds the Tradition in as much contempt as they do, they have nothing to fall back on but the clubby, suburban, back-slapping twaddle that passes for Catholic Faith in parishes like St. Joan's. And so, in a weird manifestation of Stockholm Syndrome, the victims go on parroting what they were taught by their betrayers ("Celebrate homosexuality! The Da Vinci Code is Scripture! Welcome the Goddess!") and never even know that the people who betrayed them also robbed them and sold their Catholic birthright for a pot of message. Indeed, any suggestion that the Tradition might in fact liberate the Church from the lies of those, like Shanley, who despise the Tradition is greeted with hoots by the betrayed. After all, they have Outgrown All That. Thus do the hostages make war on Jesus, their rescuer.


Mark Shea is Senior Content Editor for Catholic Exchange. You may visit his website at www.mark-shea.com [mark-shea.com] check out his blog, Catholic and Enjoying It!, or purchase his books and tapes here.

I've heard about St. Joan's Parish before, which makes me think it's probably not indicative of the state of most Roman Catholic parishes in the U.S.

I understand where you're coming from, Doc. Many, many RC parishes are horrific and tragic altars to the human ego.

But at the same time, there are many good ones. In fact, my home parish is very very orthodox. In my opinion, one will find a good many orthodox RC parishes in America. I think orthopraxy is a totally different question (and much less common), but that's coming from someone who shudders from even the idea of going to a "Mass of Paul VI," no matter how closely the rubrics are followed.

Logos Teen

Anytime you see a parish like that, you have to conclude the bishop is worthless and not doing his job. It is the responsibility of the bishop to uphold right order and orthodox teaching in his diocese.

They would fit right in out here in Southern California :rolleyes:

james

Yes, some romans head east because they are running. Thank God I am not one of those.

I had been thinking about east a few years ago, but if I had moved back then it would have been all for the wrong reasons.

I have heard of EC parishes that get an influx of Latin Rite refugees and they try to pressure the parish to conform to the pre-vatican II Latin Church.

This is why I am in favor of becoming more Byzantine. Our growth, I believe, is linked in becoming more authentic. This will draw people to us because we have something that they are seeking. There is a hunger in the US for authentic Byzantine Spirituality, and I believe that we are being called by God to step up to the plate.

John

Permit me to throw out a few musings on this matter that I have wondered about.

I wonder, how important is it really which of those two reasons are at the root of why someone might go East (or West for that matter)? If at the root of it the individuals are of good will and their "move" is the result of them seeking the sacraments, holiness, worship of the Trinity and the eternal truths of the Gospel, and they come into our Eastern/Western premises, isn't that good enough reasoning?

Since we are part of the one flock of Christ, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, how much of a "move" is it really?

Perhaps (again, I am openly musing here) we need to cease thinking this way? I don't think doing that must necessitate basic courtesy, politeness and good will, nor the reasonable expectation that the customs and traditions of the East are to be respected when in an Eastern church in accordance with the spirit of the saying "when in Rome..." But even should a Latin go East, and while maintaining that courtesy to the Eastern church they attend, still retain their own traditional Latin theology and customs for themselves personally and privately, isn't what is first, foremost and most important ultimately that they are being spiritually fed and formed in the Divine Mysteries which will hopefully lead them to their eternal reward?

Dear Shawn,

You raise a very important issue!

My friend's parish up here is about half Traditional Latin - they are actually wonderful parishioners, much better, as he says, than his cradle Ukies!

They sing in the choir (and let's remember that they have LEARNED to sing the Liturgy in Ukrainian!), they are very active, contributing members to their parish and make the Sign of the Cross with three fingers, but go to the left first . (My friend, who is the parish priest, wondered about this, but I told him that that is how the Copts cross themselves ).

Anything wrong with that? Absolutely not!

But to look at this from the perspective of the Roman Catholic fleeing the Latin Church to our Churches (if I may), I'm trying to understand this on various levels, since this seems to be occurring on various levels.

If the Roman Catholic in our Church is there as a welcome refugee, how long can he or she remain there before feeling they aren't really "part" of the whole EC church scene?

Doesn't that pose a problem?

If I lived in an area where there were no BC parishes, I would, in all likelihood, begin attending an Orthodox parish that would have me. It would be difficult for me to attend ANY RC rite, Tridentine/Novus Ordo, for a long period of time.

My spirituality, much as many of our Orthodox friends would deny it, is "Orthodox."

I can see myself attending a Latin rite parish and then being "Eastern" in private at home.

There would be some dissonance over time, if the situation couldn't change.

From the RC point of view, the Catholic Church is one big Church with a number of Rites that express the same Faith.

From the EC point of view (although there are EC's who would agree with the above), the Catholic Church is a Communion of Churches in communion, as their focus of unity, with Rome.

They share the same Faith on a "theoretical" level - but express the same Faith in quite different ways and terms, each specific to the legitimate theological, canonical, ecclesiological and liturgical traditions of each Particular Church (including the Latin Particular Church).

We believe as the Latins do - but after that, we are as different from each other as day and night.

Personally, if a Latin is in our Churches ONLY as a refugee and because he or she has fallen out with the liturgical/theological traditions of the Latin Church, it is highly unlikely that he or she will eventually become an Easterner.

We only need to look at the history of the EC Churches in relation to the RC church to see this.

Our theologies have different points of departure and developments. When Rome was fully "Tridentine" and perceived itself as an ecclesial monolith (maybe it still does), then EC Churches suffered real repression of their traditions. At one time, Rome believed that while all Rites were legitimate, the Latin Rite was the most perfect because it was the Rite of the Pope etc.

I don't have any answers other than there are Latins in our midst who have come to become integral members of our Eastern Churches.

And there are those who are there as refugees, with no real hope of returning home any time soon.

They are all welcome!

But I'm wondering what the long term impact on the latter group will be.

Alex

Why do Romans head East?

To bask under the rising sun and savor its morning glory?

Amado

(How many are they? The question seems to imply that hordes of Romans are heading East!)

Alex,

Your post above to Shawn brings much clarity where clarity is needed. You are, dear brother in Christ, telling it like it is. I can see you care and have given this matter much thought.

Do you have any other options in mind for those who come from the West and move East for whatever reason?

And, as well, for those of us who for good reason must stay West and wish we were in the East--i.e. have adopted an Orthodox spirituality.

I am not posing any kind of argument about this because I am in agreement with you on all you have said above. I just would sincerely like to know what options you think there are. Thanks so much for anything you chose to write and I do hope you see this and reply. P.M. if you prefer.

Actually I don't think as many Latins are moving East as they are moving into Evangelical churches, but most are staying put. And there are always those who leave and never return to any church. Maybe there will be more moving East in time as they learn of the othodoxy and beauty of the Eastern Way.

In Christ,

Mary Jo...prayerfully seeking..

Dear Mary Jo,

Well, I don't have any real answers, but I can give you my reflections on this.

Traditional Latins who don't like the Novus Ordo will go SSPX, Byzantine, Orthodox (and the Orthodox do have a Latin Rite as in the Antiochian Church) or perhaps they will find an Indult parish where they will be all right.

I see Novus Ordo Catholics sometimes becoming Protestant/Evangelical - don't know why, but a Traditional Latin might say it was because the NO was exposing them to Protestantism too much

I don't know if anyone has done a statistical profile on the Traditional Latin movement - all I know is that there are plenty of "closet Traditionalists" who, given half a chance, will go Indult and/or SSPX.

We had a situation up here where the SSPX set up chapels that were so well attended they started to build their own cathedral. The Catholics who attended didn't see the difference (they commemorate the Pope) and so thought this was great.

Our Cardinal-Archbishop, when he found out, HIT the roof!

He brought in the Indult, but I don't know if this affected those Catholics attending the SSPX places.

The parish priest that Mel Gibson hired to do the Traditional Mass when he filmed "The Passion" has, as I understand it, since been suspended for insisting on helping out the SSPX parishes. He also wrote a public letter saying that he was sorry for ever having worked on Novus Ordo liturgies and that Rome made a big mistake in changing from the Tridentine Liturgy.

I don't know if a good sociologist of religion would be able to measure all these views in any legitimate statistical way.

Having said that, let's leave Amado's issue about "how many after all?" aside.

Traditional Latins should, in my view, press for an Indult parish with their bishop.

If the bishop refuses, they should appeal to Rome - I think the new Pope especially will be all ears to them.

And, after all, I've met Catholics who were lukewarm in their practice of their faith, but when they went to a Tridentine Mass - and still go- they became die-hard Roman Catholics and tell everyone they are!

My perspective is - whatever works!

If the Russian Orthodox Church can today adopt the stance that it has TWO Rites - the Nikonian and the Old - why can't Rome? I thought Rome liked Moscow!

There are some in the Canadian Church that think that once the Indult becomes widely available, no one will want to come to the NO Masses. They could be right, I don't know, but so far no one is taking any chances.

Failing all this, traditional Latins can come to Eastern Catholic Churches, either as initiates or refugees - they are always welcome, as long as they behave!

(One RC told me he wanted a Church that has the best of BOTH East and West - I told him to start learning Ukrainian immediately . . . ).

Again, as an EC, I am really outside this issue.

For me, a "religious liberal" is someone who makes the Sign of the Cross only once when passing by a Church, rather than three times . . .

Alex

Alex, not all are "traditional Latin Catholics". Some are truly being converted to Eastern Catholicism who are not looking for a return to that. It is sad indeed when we can't get past this image and that, in a nutshell, is the problem we encountered during our year attending the Byzantine Catholic Church. We did behave ourselves though, honestly.

Thanks for your kindness in replying. I guess none of us really have the answers to this, yet I plan to keep seeking.

Mary Jo...gratefully.

Dear Mary Jo,

Certainly, the strength and mission of the EC Churches is that they do speak to Western Christians who are searching for just what the EC churches have to offer!

For me, this was the great Resurrectional optimism of the Byzantine tradition, the devotion to Divine Wisdom and Light!

Also, the glory of the Mother of God and the Saints via Theosis. The glorification of all Three Persons (in an overt liturgical manner) of the Most Holy Trinity. Also, the way the role of the Holy Spirit is underscored in the Liturgy and the Mysteries of the Eastern Church (there is no way the Holy Spirit could ever be called "the neglected God" in the Eastern Church!).

I came from a Latin background, and went very much East when I came into contact with a parish that was truly "Orthodox in communion with Rome" (St Nicholas' which interior was featured in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding.")

RC bishops have a lot of reticence about their flock going "Eastward" though. And they can put up a lot of resistance to this - as can our Basilian and other monastics of the Latinophrone persuasion.

I don't envy Latins going Eastward.

But I do welcome them with open arms!!

Don't worry, I use deodorant . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,

As an old Latin warhorse myself once I don't say these extra gestures are necessary...

But they sure are appreciated! :p

Dear Coalesco,

Thank you!

I use a very good and strong deodorant and after-shave.

Not to be confused with the "odor of sanctity" or anything like that, mind you . . .

Alex

And people think it's the incense that brings Latins :rolleyes: in!