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Diane,

Augustine's theory that schismatics can consecrate is not patristic teaching, no matter how much you want to pretend it is. Show me where other fathers before Augustine taught that heretics could confer ordinations. Look at the response to the Novation schism: if a Novation bishop wanted to join the Catholic Orthodox Church, and there was a vacancy in the bishopric, they would receive him as a bishop. If there already was a bishop, they received him as a priest. The good of the community is what matters, not some "indelible mark" that always is there. If you are outside the Church, you do not have orders.

The booklet "Apostolic Sucession" by Gregory Rogers (conciliar Press) shows from patristics how St. Augustine innovated.

As far as intercommunion between Latins and Orthodox, that has little to do with the point of whether or not outside the Church, a bishop can confer ordination. These are two separate issues in two separate historical circumstances. If you want to read about the later, read "Eustratios Argenti" by Timothy (Bp Kallistos) Ware where he explained when and why this happened.

anastasios

Okay...

So, hierarchy of "schismatic" Orthodox Churches, such as the HOCNA, oftentimes (most of the time?) are not reordained upon "entering" Orthodoxy. However, Catholics priests/bishops who are, judging from some of the Orthodox views expressed on this forum, "part of the Church" are reordained upon "entering" Orthodoxy.

So, how does this square? And how does it square with Eastern Catholics who believe the HOCNA is schismatic and uncanonical but who believe Catholics and canonical Orthodox to be part of the same Church?

Logos Teen

No. According to Orthodoxy, anyone outside of communion with Orthodoxy is not Orthodox and not part of the Church--at least not visibly. Orthodox aknowledge that some are part of the Church but that we can't dogmatize on them if they are not in communion.

So schismatic "Orthodox" and Catholics are in the same boat according to Orthodoxy: outside the visible Church. Can they be saved? yes. Can they receive God's grace? yes. But they are not in the Church.

A Roman Catholic priest can be recieved as a priest or received by reordination. It's up to the bishop received to decided based on the circumstances and what's best for his soul.

If one is Eastern Catholic and thinks Orthodox and Catholics together make up the Church, that doesn't change the status of HOCNA which is not Orthodox by virtue of being schismatic (as SSPX is not really Catholic).

anastasios

When it's about vagante churches such as the "Evangelical Orthodox Church" who come from Protestant sects it's ok to "respect them a lot" and praise their missionary efforts, and even incorporate them to the Orthodox Church accepting former misnisters as priests, but when it's about Old Calendar Churches who have separated from other jurisdictions in order to preserve the Orthodox tradition, some people think it's good to be severe and judge them strictly.

It is proper to respect everyone, and seek for good in everyone. Nobody ever said that it was easy to do this, however. In the specific case of the Holy Orthodox Church in North America, they are probably not much concerned with what others care to think about them. But Church History teaches us that kindness and love are much more effective tools for the healing of such divisions than epithets and condemnation. Incognitus

What are you talking about? No one accepts Evangelical Orthodox Church members as priests--they are all reordained.

It has nothing to do with Old Calendar vs New Calendar; it has to do with schisms. And note that I said that SOME Old Calendarists are received and then reordained--the ones from fake groups like HOCNA for instance might qualify. But ones from the Synod of Cyprian would even be considered priests now because they are in union with the rest of the Orthodox Church (through ROCOR). So the point is being in union with other Orthodox since there is one church, not the relative measure of worthiness of one's cause.

I personally don't think any Old Calendarist should be reordained but that's me. I was using them as an illustration to show that if you are outside the Orthodox Church, you are outside it, period. Yes there are different degrees of separation, as well, though.

I can't figure out why you even brought a false example of the EOC into this argument. What do they mean to you or to me??

anastasios

This attitude makes me ill. And it's not even as severe as Seraphim Reeves' view--by a long shot.

One more reason why I praise God for His One True Holy Catholic Church in communion with Peter's successor.

Give me Lumen Gentium and the VCII Decree on Ecumenism any old day over Orthodox exclusivism.

ZT

Those documents were never triumphalistic however :p

It has always struck me that the Catholic Church, viewed from the outside as narrow, is in fact more generous than any other communion. If I were [God forbid] to become a Baptist I would have to be rebaptised. A Baptist wanting to become a Catholic, however, is recognized as a Christian by the "narrow" Catholic Church.
I recently got onto a ROCOR site that purported to explore the spiritualities of St Francis of Assisi and St Seraphim of Sarov. I had always thought these two saints to be kindred souls, so I was intrigued to read an Orthodox perspective on the subject [I should mention that I have a dear friend who is affiliated with ROCOR]. Imagine my shock when I read that St Francis was in fact demonically influenced and of the Spirit of Antichrist! I tell you, it gets weird out there...

Whatever. You can't get any more exlusive than Unam Sanctum by Pope Boniface VIII.

anastasios

BTW Diane, it is not my attitude. I personally believe Orthodox and Catholics to both somehow be "the Church." I was merely presenting the Orthodox view. Your hatred towards Orthodoxy makes *me* sick.

And if you think I am more extreme than Seraphim Reeves you are really out there.

anastasios

The sentiment reflected by that article and that website in general is not an accurate reflection of the Orthodox view towards Latin saints.

anastasios

There's a lot of flack flying around here.

There's a lot of flack flying around here.

Let's keep it ad rem. :p


I am SHOCKED that any Orthodox would have ANYTHING bad to say about St. Francis! What evil could one speak about a rich young man who gave up EVERYTHING to follow Christ? (Compare with the "rich young man" in the Gospel!)

Anyway, I am glad, as anastasios notes, that hatred of the saints is not general in the O.E.

Take care everybody.

I find it rather distasteful personally as well. But just so you can read it for yourself here is the article (again, from a non-mainstream Orthodox site).

Article on St Francis [orthodoxinfo.com]

anastasios