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Dear Father Michael Mary,

Well, at least your monastery chose a beautiful island!

We don't agree, but I wish you well!

A good Lent to you!

Alex

Fr. Michael Mary,

If you had talked like that in the previous thread, in tones of humility and love, then there would not have been such bad feelings.

We all here have our disagreements --Orthodox, Catholics, Eastern Catholics (Orthodox in communion with Rome), and so on. But, when we all at least agree on love, we can talk to each other and listen to each other civilly and compassionantely.

But Father, you didn't do that in the last thred. You may not have intended anything bad, but you offended a lot of people by the tone and language of some of your posts. I respectfully suggest that you apologize for causing offense by the tone and language in some of your previous posts.

You may then be pleasantly surprised by the willingness of people here to listen to you and talk with you, even though they disagree with you.

-- John

SPDundas,

You would do well to never speak to a priest in that tone again!

I don't even speak of Cardinal Mahoney that way...or at least try not to, and if we knew my thoughts about him we'd probably have a heart attack!

I fear for the day that I will have to answer to Our Lord about disrespecting Him in the Holy Priesthood of those who I believed didn't serve him well in that post!

Logos Teen

Dear Friends,

I harbor no hard feelings whatsoever towards Fr. Michael Mary. He is just a western version of my old friend and our Byzcath poster, Photius!

Maybe one day, fundamentalists of all persuasions will realize that they can keep all the beauty of old fashioned traditions, religious adherences and disciplines, yet still appreciate and embrace the other that is not like them....

We must never love ourselves so much that we cannot see the face of Christ in those who are culturally or religiously different than us.

We must never allow ourselves to be so black and white, that the beauty of grey does not exist.

We must never forget that if we met our Lord and His blessed Mother, that many of us would find their Jewish culture hard to understand, yet...

God's love transcends all cultures, religions, mentalities, languages and races. Should we not do the same? Christ did not die exclusively for one group of particular Christian believers.

I really think that our shortcoming of loving the other that is different is at the center of all intolerance and triumphalism of Christian brother towards Christian brother.

Anyway, sorry for the disertation-- :rolleyes:

You guys are truly THE BEST Christians I have EVER met!

With love in Christ,
Alice

Photius !?! I remember Photius . . . May God bless him, wherever he is now.


Amen.

-- John

Please explain what you mean by "pure form", Father? Do you kneel on Sundays? Do you have pews? Do you retain the Filoque? I think the answer to at least some of these, if not all, is yes, which is inconsistent with the descriptive of "pure form". I also assume that you use recited Liturgies as well. Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom for weekdays of the Great Fast? We could go on and on.

I know that the Society of St. Josaphat and the Transalpines hold quite tenaciously to some later modern latinizations, all of which came after the pseudo-synods of Zamosc and L'viv. This is the basis of your arguments for attempting to lead the people to your clergy rather than the legitimate and visable episcopal line of Patriarch Josyp, represented by his successor, Patriarch Lubomyr. There has to be some differences between yours and the usual UGCC parishes, otherwise what are you trying to accomplish?

I also understand that certain Latin devotions are also quite in vogue with you. These are indeed appropriate and beatiful devotions - for Latins. We are not Latins. We have our own venerable and beautiful tradition of Akathists, Canons by the likes of Joseph, Theophan, Cosmas of Maium, St. John Damascene, etc. How about a Moleben with the Canon to Sweetest Jesus? Or the Paraklesis?

How about Saturday Evening Vespers and Sunday Matins in the parishes of the Transalpines and Society of St. Josaphat? Now that would be traditional. But as I understand these are non-existent.

Let's be honest - do any of your people have the necessary educational or liturgical background to actually do that? If I am in error please correct me, with the specific training of those clergy. I don't consider Econe to fit the bill for any competency in Eastern liturgy and the Greek Fathers. And if you realize you do not have that level of education and experience to appreciate and respect the authentic tradition, you should cease immediately until you do so.

If you understood the tradition, you would respect it, not foster modern Latinizations of the last two hundred years, and return to a much older Patristic liturgical basis. You would not try to create additional unnecessary divisions and ill-will in the name of "tradition" - and in the process actually depart from what you have described as the "pure form".

I can see the argument for the Traditional Mass in places where the bishops have not allowed the indult. But in this case you are going into areas where our Divine Liturgy is strong and making a great resurgence from the time of the godless atheists, and under the guise of "tradition" inciting division within Christian people.

But, thank God, not even one of the venerable bishops of the UGCC, even those sainted survivors of the gulags who are retired and still with us, are with you. Not one.

I believe you have still not enlightened us with which Redemptorist province you were professed in, or which diocese or bishop you have been incardinated with. Have a blessed fast.
FDD

To return to the topic of the thread, I love Orthodoxy! I would be lost without my Unnabbreviated Horologion, Psalter of the 70, Book of Akathists, Menaion, Old Rite Prayerbook...Octoechos...Little Russian Philokalia...too many things to mention...
FDD

Dear Diak
By �pure form� of the Divine Liturgy I mean that we follow in Old Slavonic the Volgata Rescension published with the blessing of the Holy See 1942, and the Chasoslov and Molitoslov of 1950. Of course there is no kneeling on Sundays etc. We have no pews, we have a humble but beautiful iconostasis, three veils for this Holy Mysteries; no pre-cut particles but the 5 prosphora prescribed; no �read� Liturgies; we have incense, sung polyphony; oil lamps, red veil for the potir; the holy potir and discos are oriental; the holy zeon is poured into the holy potir; we celebrate in different coloured stikars, and wear the priest�s holy Byzantine cross. Those who have taken the little schema wear their kloubuk and mantia for Divine Liturgy, meals in the Trapezna and in general around the monastery; we venerate the holy icons and have no statues in our Byzantine place of worship which is blessed with the title of the Pokrovski Mother of God.
We have the Synodal Ustava Bogocloozheniya of �Synodalnaya Tipografiya, S.-Peterboorg, 1907 written by Konstantin Nikolskyi for a reference in liturgical actions and practice as well as the history of the Holy Liturgy. We have also some other Typikons of more recent publication destined for the Church in Ukraine. All this is done to follow the well known words of St Pius X when approving the Russian Byzantine rite:� Nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter �. Not more nor less nor otherwise� than the Russian Synod. This was the way of Bishop Nicholas Charnetsky and the first Redemptorist missioners in Volyn and it is what we follow. As you say there are so many books to talk about andwe are doing our best to build up a good library of Oriental books.

Having said that we have not the perfection of everything we aspire to, nor do we claim to, nor are we impatient about it. If what we do is God�s work it will show itself in time; it will be a work of grace and the fruit of patient labour, prayer and penance.

The education of the young is the fruit of more patient labour. The most essential thing for them is to be solidly formed as Catholic priests; this was also the path of Metropolitan Sterniuk who did his studies in our Latin rite monastery in Belgium. Futher studies in the Oriental tradition after ordination is all we can do at present.

So you can probably see quite clearly Diak that we are not the same as the Society of St Josaphat although we do indeed give them out full support. They work among the faithful in Lviv, Ivano Franko and other places where some would try and suppress their rite. All power to them for holding on to their own traditions. I admire these priests, nuns and faithful who have truly suffered for their holy rite: cast out of their churches, living without monastic buildings and dismissed from their posts because of their desire in God to cling to their holy Rite; they suffer for the sake of Christ. Most of them were in the pidpelia and came out of the Catacomb church only to find themselves in the same situation again.

A little note on rites with reference to dear Blessed Nicholas Charnetsky: A priest who was ordained by the Blessed told me that after his priestly consecration, (which took place in the Bishop's pidpilia monastery at 7 Vecherniya Street, Lviv,) the Blessed Bishop told the new priest to kneel down and say with him the three Hail Mary�s to Our Lady. Being a Redemptorist, and knowing the life of our Oriental bishop, I enquired of the priest asking if it was before the icon of Our Mother of Perpetual Help/ Succour? To my surprise the priest replied in the negative. They knelt down and said the three Hail Marys before a statue of Our Lady of Lourdes! Behold the holy man Mikola! He was raised in the latanised Greek Catholic rite under Blessed Gregory; he became a Missionary Bishop in Volyn wearing Russian vestments and doing all according to the practices of the Russian Synod; he was recognized as an authority in the Byzantine Oriental rite; he was �pure rite� with the non-united whom he wished to unite, and yet was equally at home, even very at home, with the latinised Byzantine rite Catholics of Lviv in 1958; he was truly a Catholic man who fitted perfectly into both holy rites that all might be one in the Holy Unia of the Catholic Church. Blessed Nicholas, Wonderworker of Lviv, Martyr of Charity, may your mission of Holy Unia continue, for the salvation of souls, even to the Day of Judgment. +

What is the point of your performing the Rites at such a high standard and helping those who want to preseve their substandard hybridized rites and ceremonies. The reforms to the rites go back to Metropolitan Andrew and his desire to tidy up what had become very messy. I very much doubt that ritual is what drives these schismatics but a desire to do their own thing and there is nothing Catholic about that. It is such a shame that people in Ukraine gave their lives for union with the Pope and this lot can't get out from under him fast enough. This lot must be the spiritual sons and daughter of the false synod of Lviv. It is such a great shame you are not using these resources you have to build up the Church in Ukraine, instead you playing divide and conquer games with such devastating consequences.

I also wish you a good great Lent.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear Father Michael Mary,

Well, if you follow the rubrics in that way, that is good.

I believe Volodymyr Sterniuk was an Archbishop and not a Metropolitan (?).

We agree on the "nec plus . . ."

So, may I ask you, what is your view with respect to the title, "Orthodox in communion with Rome?"

What is your view with respect to His Beatitude and him whom many in the UGCC call Patriarch Lubomyr Husar?

What are your views on the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Ukraine today?

Why do you defend Father Hovpak?

Thank you,

Alex

All this sounds good, Father. Actually those words were spoken by St. Pius X to Mdme. Ushakova when she had a private audience with Pope St. Pius X to settle the dispute between those wanted a more Latinized usage (as per Zamosc and L'viv - including using the Filioque, etc.) and those who wished to follow the Synodal ussage within the Russian Catholic Church. And on those words nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter we are indeed in agreement - and those words are central to me in my ministry as a Byzantine deacon.

But there are a few inconsistencies in your reply in applying these words of St. Pius X. Regarding your statement on statues, one only has to look at the website of http://www.papastronsay.com/Ukraine.htm and see the prominent central place the statue takes, and the Latinized pictures of the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts on the wall. Why not the Bogoroditsa Znamennya? The Vyshorod Mati Bozha? The Pochaiv Mati Bozha? A picture tells a thousand words, indeed. And you say you fully support those who willfully implement modern latinizations.

If they are to be faithful and respective of the tradition they are going to celebrate, they must be immersed and fully capable of celebrating that tradition. That was the desire of Metropolitan Volodymyr.

Yes, let's look at Belgium. There were some good teachers of the Greek Fathers and Eastern Liturgy in Louvain. Fr. Dimitri Kuzmine-Karaviev, one of the last of Blessed Exarch Leonid's priests who escaped the godless, taught at Louvain. You have no such competent teachers.

If you want an excellent example of a monastery that has remained quite faithful to the authentic celebration of the Byzantine liturgy, why not send your men to Chevetogne? They have a fantastic library, and when it comes to the Russian Liturgy and music they know their business and even the Orthodox consider their liturgical practices to be excellent.

No, let's be honest. You reject Chevetogne, the Orientalium, the Russicum, any Ukrainian Catholic institutions such as the prestigious Sheptytsky Institue in Canada, the Ukrainian Catholic University in L'viv - and certainly any Orthodox institutions. You have access to them, but reject them - for your own, subjective idea of "Catholic formation" which is against the desires of Leo XIII and many of our own bishops.

Your anecdote about Bl. Mykola is touching - but not verifiable. I understand he had a small icon of the Theotokos of the Sign of Yaroslav that was the center of his icon corner - from anecdotes of those I have met.

And as a gentle correction - that is not the Latin "Hail Mary" - but rather that is "Rejoice, O Theotokos" (a uniquely Byzantine variation) that is sung three times at the All-Night Vigil. And I think the point of returning to authentic Byzantine practices and devotions is essential if one is to understand and respect the tradition.

I do behold and pray to the martyr Mykola - and I am in full, visible, and canonical communion with his brother Redemptorist bishops faithful to Patriarch Lubomyr, Bl. Vasyl Velychkovsky (I didn't see any of your men at his beatification in Winnipeg, by the way), Patriarch Josyp and Metropolitan Volodymyr. But wait - he was beatified by Pope John Paul II, whose educational institutions and magesterial instructions (Orientale Lumen, the Instruction on Appplying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Eastern Code, the new Eastern Code...etc.) you reject.

I do appreciate your response, but you haven't answered several questions. Do you use the Filioque? Perhaps you should read Article 1 of the Union of Brest. It was not used by Exarch Leonid and the Russian Catholics.

A few others to establish some canoncial basis of your group - to whom did you profess, which province of Redemptorists you belong to, and to which bishop(s) you have jurisdiction with. And why are you different from the UGCC parishes in communion with Patriarch Lubomyr and his episcopal descendent, Patriarch Josyp? Are there liturgical differences? Something has to be different. We'd like to know, honestly and openly.
FDD

n.b. Your monastery timetable makes no mention at all of following a Byzantine Horologion.

John, we talked about this before. In my experience a good many Catholics have really nothing but the vaguest notion of what or who the Orthodox are. I know others who are interested in it and very respectful of Orthodoxy. Sadly, I also know many Catholics who despise Orthodoxy. I was privy once to a conversation about an Orthodox mission that met in a Catholic sanctuary and whether or not that was appropriate. A comment was made that one doesn�t cast your pearls before swine. That comment has always stuck with me. I also know of some Catholics who when contemplating moving to Orthodoxy were told they were going to Hell for doing so.

Andrew

Andrew there are RCs who have problems accepting that Byzantine Rite Catholics are Catholics. Strange lot them RCs but dont worry about them when there are plenty of us nice people out there.

ICXC
NIKA

Dearest in Christ, members
I am stretching my time to answer the questions asked me. Please be patient.

Pavel Ivanovich: - I thought the word "schismatic" directed at anone on this forum was a word considered to insulting and calculated to insult. Am I to infer that you are trying to rally others to "gang up on me"? This is not useful. According to Cardinal Hoyos we are not schismatics. According to the latest papers, in the last pre- consistory discussion in Rome our question which was the FIRST on the agenda was delt with in great charity by the Holy Father and the Cardinals and Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos says that Rome is "waiting with open arms." ....Well Pavel "get with the Pope" and if you can't open your arms towards us at least listen to the discussion on this thread without troubling the exchange.

Thank you for considering our humble efforts at the Liturgy to be of 'high quality'. But please be assured of my best wishes in your regard. At an earlier date you compared us to Mormons (March 22nd) but it is simply neither helpful nor accurate.

I attach the newspaper clipping on the pre-Consistory discussions to assure you that I am not telling you something which is not true.

"Pre-consistory discussion on "the question of Abp. Lefebvre"
By Andrea Tornielli, in Il Giornale:
Cardinal Dario Castrill�n, who introduced the first theme, describing the state of the negotiations with the followers of Lefebvre -- the Traditionalists who criticize the Council and its reforms -- spoke of the possibility of making them re-enter into full communion with Rome through the concession of a structure of "prelature", dependent on the Pope.

The debate was lively: French cardinals Lustiger and Ricard and the Swiss Cottier discarded the idea of a prelature, preferring less compromising formulas which make reference to the associations of laypeople. Cardinal Bertone, former number two [Secretary] of the former Holy Office, recalled the past debates with the Lefebvrist Fraternity and emphasized the need to define well the doctrinal bases of an agreement.

All said that the re-pacification is promising, many reminded that the acceptance, by the Lefebvrists, of the Second Vatican Council is needed. Cardinal Francis Arinze then introduced the problem of the extension of the indult which would allow the Traditionalists in communion with Rome an easier use of the 1962 Missal. "The Church awaits for the Lefebvrists with open arms," declared at the end cardinal Castrill�n, clearly satisfied.

The Original Itallian text from Il Giornale:
http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?ID=76598

I cardinali d'accordo con il Papa: �Braccia aperte ai lefebvriani� di Andrea Tornielli
Oggi il concistoro, nei preliminari si � discusso dei vescovi in pensione. E Sodano sollecita proposte per riformare la curia
Andrea Tornielli - da Roma
Il dialogo con l'islam, la possibilit� di concludere il mini-scisma dei lefebvriani, come valorizzare gli ormai tantissimi vescovi in pensione: sono stati questi i tre temi principali dell'incontro di tutti i cardinali convocati da Benedetto XVI alla vigilia del concistoro. Il Papa ha voluto consultarli ricreando il clima delle congregazioni generali che un anno fa hanno preceduto il conclave. Benedetto XVI ha rivolto un breve discorso ai cardinali, riuniti nell'aula del Sinodo, accantonando il testo preparato, e ha introdotto l'agenda dell'incontro.
Nella mattinata sono stati trattati il tema dei lefebvriani e quello dei vescovi emeriti. Gli interventi, una ventina, su richiesta del decano Angelo Sodano dovevano durare quattro minuti (�meglio se tre�, ha detto il cardinale), ma non tutti hanno rispettato i tempi. Il cardinale Dario Castrill�n, che ha introdotto il primo tema, descrivendo lo stato delle trattative con i seguaci di Lefebvre - i tradizionalisti che criticano il Concilio e le sue riforme - e ha parlato della possibilit� di farli rientrare nella piena comunione con Roma concedendo loro la struttura della �prelatura� dipendente dal Papa. Il dibattito � stato vivace: i cardinali francesi Lustiger e Ricard, e lo svizzero Cottier hanno scartato l'idea della prelatura, preferendo formule meno impegnative che facciano riferimento alle associazioni di laici. Il cardinale Bertone, gi� numero due dell'ex Sant'Uffizio, ha ricordato i colloqui avvenuti in passato con la Fraternit� lefebvriana e ha posto l'accento sulla necessit� di definire bene le basi dottrinali dell'accordo. Tutti hanno detto che la rappacificazione � auspicabile, molti hanno ricordato che � necessaria da parte dei lefebvriani l'accettazione del Concilio Vaticano II. Il cardinale Francis Arinze ha poi posto il problema dell'estensione dell'indulto che permetta ai tradizionalisti in comunione con Roma di poter utilizzare pi� facilmente il messale del 1962. �La Chiesa attende i lefebvriani a braccia aperte�, ha dichiarato all'uscita il cardinale Castrill�n, visibilmente soddisfatto.

Dear Alex
Thank you. To answer your questions briefly but not in a full manner:
Yes, Archbishop Sterniuk, locum tenens with a white veil. I met him twice to talk to.
My views on the title "Orthodox in communion with Rome." Let us say first with Shakespeare: What is in a name? What would the reality of it be. It would be an acceptable name if it meant truly: Unity in Faith, Morals with the Catholic Church: FAITH: Acceptance of Papal Infallibility which is De Fide; the Immaculate Conception of Theotokos (again De Fide; perhaps we should just add here "etc," because there has to be true unity of faith. MORALS: Marriage and divorce come to mind immediately.

To that I would have to add that he revalidation of Orders, and therefore the doubt about the Apostolic Succession in Russia after the Revolution is a real worry; and for this reason our Greek Catholic bishops have usually re-ordained priests coming to the Catholic Church from the Moscow Patriarch; today the same kind of doubts are brought up about people coming from the Kiev Patriarchate: A touchy issue but a real one I think. So as a title goes, if it settles matters to bring about true unity in Faith and Morals with the See of Peter I would be delighted no end.

I need more time to think about Cardinal Husar, pass.

My views on the Ukrainian Catholic Church today: I will speak on of what I know about and have experienced but please do not take it amiss. I speak because you ask me. In the diaspora it seems to lose its vigour after a generation or so and the young are not so interested in the Church. I fear the same for present day Ukraine; the Churches are not as full as they were after Independence; vocations are much fewer. These are worries.

My experience of scandal about Simony in the hierarchy is real. The priests that have come to me to speak have told me very bad stories; this is a known fact in Ukraine even if not talked about in the West. A bishop, for example, making money by bringing cars through the boarder and selling them on etc. Racketeering. I do not believe this is true of all our UGCC bishops at all; but there are many who talk of the dollars it costs to be ordained. You ask, I tell you what I hear and that it worries me.

There is almost no education among some of the priests of the Kiev Patriarchate, for example; they need priests and ordain them. Several who are educated by the UGCC go off and join the other groups.

Why defend Fr Kovpak? That Mass which he says is the inheritance of the UGCC. As you know it was ALL Latinised; this is evident from the photos of even Cardinal Joseyf before the prison camps. Look at the portraits of the past Rectors of the Lviv Theological seminary: All as Roman as they possibly could be. That is the Rite known in Lviv right up to World War II. It is also the Rite known in the pidpilia. These good long suffering Catholics have a fear of the word Pravoslavnik and cling to a Catholic identity; this, as I am sure you know, is the identity given them through their latinised rite; which is precisely the reason for the latinisation: so that they could keep theie identity: their particular sign of the Cross; their key omissions; all these were approved by the Popes to help Greek Catholics maintain their unity with the Holy See.

You know the rite we celebrate. But I deeply respect those good people who have suffered so long to remain Catholic and who cling to their tradition 'Nasha traditia' as they say. Who is anyone to take that identity from them? Or to take their faith from them? So thousands resist. I do not applaud this as if they were joining 'me'. Wretch that I am I am in not way going to 'score' something for myself. They would not go to the Liturgy I would celebrate; and I fully understand them. Usualy when I go to Lviv I will celebrate in the Latin Rite: 'Doozha Katolik' as they say.

I respect those thousands of people who resist Cardinal Husar. They are the little people. They were the backbone of pidpilia; I have visited them. They deserve support. And Rome must give them their right to express their Faith which is the faith of their Fathers and the ongoing echo of the Pidpilia. SO in that rite: kovpaks; buttons; crucifixes with one nail for the feet; bells for each communiction; Suplikatsia; Way of the Cross; White altar cloths and candles; statues the whole nine yards and let the Church open the Holy Doors to receive their prayers and their loving hearts: healthy Catholic diversity for wonderful people who deserve this much tollerance at the very least. They defend their faith: let all stand back and cry: Vonmem. Premoodrost, prosti; clear the way: these at least should not have to be submitted to the liturgy that, rightly or wrongly, but rightly and historically they associate with the Patriarch of Moscow. The bell rings. I must go.
Please excuse anything that you consider wrong; or typos; it is but one man's view humbly given. Happy Feast of the Annunciation.