www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West We love Orthodoxy.

One wonders if the micro-schisms and crypto schisms will not just float out into vaganteville.

+T+
Michael

Wasn't that a Jimmy Buffett song?
FDD

Dearest in Christ Diak
Unfortunately I need to take exception to your words:
Well that is plainly false and a calunmy: I refer you:
1. to PROT. N. 45/82 of the Sacred Congregation for Oriental Churches of 21 september 1984 signed by +Miroslaus Marusyn AEpp. t. Cadoen
"... humiliter postulaat ut facultas sibi fiat Sacrum litandi atque cetera sacerdotalia munia quoque byzantino obedundi. Then the reply ....gratiam petitam benigne lagitur, juxta preces, cauto tamen ut Orator Hierarchae loci sententia, ritum byzantinum scite didicerit quovis vel admirationis periculo remoto et servatis de jure servandis. ..." etc.

Giving unashamed false witness against your neighbour on the internet must figure somewhere in your code of morals, surely. And for defamation of character there is a grave obligation of reparation without which there can be no forgiveness according to Moral Theology.

You may also like to contact (apart from V. Michael -retired from Paris) the Australian UGCC where for some months before March 1987 I was the official chaplain for the Ukrainians in New Zealand for Bishop Prasko.

Canon Law states that one enjoys one's faculties until they are revoked. Were they revoked? Of course I have not enquired. For a just reason? I doubt it because Bishop Prasko wrote to me when I was at Econe asking me to continue work with him in the eparchy; I could not but he never revoked my faculties as far as I know.

On December 8th 1987 I gave a copy of the document I have quoted above to his Emenence Cardinal Gagnon who was the Pope's official Visitor to Econe. I asked him to renew the indult. He never got back to me but I assume he did.

But if he did not, our bi-ritual status and faculties have been recognised by His Lordship Bishop Fellay who has acted for the Holy See in these matters for us using supplied jurisdiction.

All these matters are in these very days being considered in Rome as you can read in what I posted yesterday. Bishop Fellay is the bishop that the Holy See recognises as being the spokesman for traditional Catholics; call us what you will we are a reality of today's Church and name calling is not excusable at the present time. (Worst case senario you should be poised to lovingly embrace us. For are not all souls equal under God; we we not all be weighed in the same scales of Divine Justice? So should you not be as anxious and loving about 'traditionalist' souls as you are about Oriental ones: especially since you were once like us in mind; received Holy Communion with us and taught our children? Just a thought.

I note the use of the term yesterday it was If such words were used against the Orthodox you would burn with fury. Yet for me, who am in some way what you also were, for you to use these words on us, that's ok. As they say: "Any stone is good enough to throw at a dog": a word, a lie it is the same it seems, if your opponent is a dog in your eyes you will say anything. Yet Father Deacon it should not be thus and, if you think about it, you should treat with me as well and as charitably as you would treat with an Orthodox or even someone who has joined it recently. And there is where we see the double standard, which should not be there; when you think about it. It seems that you veil you disdain very thinly. I am sorry it is there at all for I hve none towards you. Perhaps it is because of your own SSPX background? I don't know. But let that pass. What about the Slavonic: is it always the language you use, sometimes or hardly ever?
Let the stones stay in their place on the ground and as the Rabbi in Fiddler on the Roof so wisely said: Let us all sit down.

Your devoted servant,
Fr. Michael Mary, C.SS.R.

Father - thank you for your reply and be assured I do not intend calumny. I want the truth, I want openness and transparency in your "mission".

I was informed by my former Redemptorist bishop that you never had valid Ukrainian faculties. If he was mistaken, I apologize for forwarding dated information and I will retract when that is verified. An anecdotal reference to Vl. Marusyn that is now 22 years old simply doesn't hold water.

I understand you were never given a blessing by the Redemptorists to create a new foundation, yet you have.

Perhaps you don't realize that indults are not given out by Cardinal Gagnon, but rather are coordinated through the Ecclesia Dei commission under Cardinal Hoyos. It was he who coordinated the reconciliation with Bishop Rifan. You are not recognized by either the Commission or your local Latin bishop as being able to offer the Indult in your diocese - that much I do know.

In all honestly you keep skirting the direct questions. I will indeed check, as it is appears there is some inconsistincies with your account and that being stated by some bishops of the UGCC.

I can find no Redemptorists who consider you to be part of the Congregation, while you identify yourself to be part of that Congregation.

I'll again ask, and as necessary redirect my questions. I have given you the courtesy of answers that are verifiable with regard to my own current canonical situation.

1. What Redemptorist province do you now validly belong to? 2. What Latin and Byzantine bishops do you now enjoy CURRENTLY valid faculties that can be verified?

Bishop Fellay was specifically included as ipso facto excommunicated by the Bull Ecclesia Dei. As such, he is not canonically able to grant you any valid jurisdiction - as his are themselves in question.

I would like to keep this focused on objective items. Your points presuming my response to the Orthodox are nothing more than subjective character judgement and an attempt to skirt some serious questions. I am trying to ask definitive questions regarding your current canonical status.

And yes, I stand by the term vagus which refers to those without valid faculties - because you simply do not seem to enjoy current, valid faculties from any Latin or Byzantine bishop. Tangential references to deceased bishops don't really count. I will most definitely recant and publically apologize if proven wrong - when you produce a letter from your local Latin or UGCC bishop stating you have current faculties.

Nor do I believe Kyr Michael (Hrynchyshyn) supports what you and Fr. Kovpak are doing - in fact was a co-consecrator to Vl. Stepan Meniok, a real CSsR, who definitely is opposed to what you and Fr. Kovpak are doing.

Perhaps a letter asking clarification to Kyr Michael is in order as well - in addition to one to Vl. Petro Stasiuk as Bishop Prasko is no longer alive to verify your statements.

I would also appreciate a response to the questions derived from your website statement about Patriarch Lubomyr. I'll resubmit those questions so you will have them.
FDD

I doubt I will get a straightforward answer to any of this, but here it is.

Regarding your quips about Slavonic, I love Slavonic and prefer it to modern Ukrainian. Some of the older Znamenny and Bulharski chants simply sound better and are easier to sing in Slavonic. I am a great devotee of the pre-Nikonian Slavonic rite and love the Old Believers. One of my most treasured prayer books is the Old Rite prayerbook from Erie.

Metropolitan Sheptytsky allowed both the Nikonian and pre-Nikonian Old Rite at the Russian Catholic Synod of 1917, and it is a Quixhotic dream of mine to restore the Old Rite amongst the Catholics.

Another of my most treasured liturgical books is a beautiful Slavonic Psaltyr published in Pochaiv which was given by a dear friend on this Forum as an ordination present.

Spasi Khristos!
FDD

Dearest in Christ Diak
Having yourself lived in the SSPX boardng school to which you refer and having eaten at our table and educated our chuildren you are obviously aware that the situation of the SSPX is termed "irregular" with Rome: (ERGO irregular everywhere.)
And of course this is so or else why whould the Pope be looking at the matter now. (The justice of the question is to be put aside. I am referring to what they say about us even though we hold it to be invalid).

Surely you know that just as you already knew other things you falsely attributed to me as per the last post.

Ergo: of course there is NO UGCC bishop who gives me faculties; that's what 'irregular' means in this context; that is why Rome is looking into it all again etc etc etc.

Of course our foundation was NOT given the blessing of the Novus Ordo Redemptorists else why would Archbishop Lefebvre have given the blessing if it was not needed. That is why we are called Transalpine. So that eveyone knows we are different from them and that we are under the SSPX; as were you, and as we are. But all this is patently obvious from our website which you have been loking at intently.

And yes, you must make a retraction about my never having had faculties from UGCC bishops because I had them from the two UGC bishops already named. Please make your verifications your top priority because that is a matter of justice and should be of conscience.

And see: If I had abandoned the Catholic Church and joined the Kiev Patriarchate (which is the easiest thing in the world) you would be considering me as a wonderful person, a brother: the double standard. But rather did I remain faithful to Holy Mother Church even though we are truly very, very badly treated by our own Catholic brethren.

This is the mystery of the Cross! So let us rejoice.

Devotedly
Fr Michael Mary, C.SS.R.

Dearest in Christ Diak
I have a possible answer to your question You and I could celebrate the Divine Liturgy together and I could, with all my heart, wish you that the Lord remember you when he comes into His kingdom!

Dear Diak,
The use of the Old Rite among Greek-Catholics is not quite extinct, so take heart!

Incognitus

Fr. Michael Mary,

I wouldn't be expecting concelebration so soon.

Although it has been pretty well established that Cardinal Castrillon and Cardinal Herranz have set up a model of a "super-diocese" of worldwide jurisdiction that will be proposed to the SSPX pretty soon, Bishop Fellay said either today or yesterday that first matters of doctrine must be discussed, and then proposals can be talked about. At this time, Bishop Fellay said, it is not possible to talk about doctrine (why? I don't know), and so no proposal can be accepted right now.

It's a lot of back and forth! It seems we are on the edge of something very big. I fear if the Society rejects this proposal, it might not get a chance at normalization for quite a while.

The next few weeks in Rome concerning the SSPX should prove to be very interesting. Let's see what happens.

Logos Teen

To All, especially Father Michael Mary,

I am almost sorry to interrupt here, I thought I would go away for a while, and I don't wish to sidetrack this thread but there are a few things I need to get off my chest before I do go away. The thread that was closed was more the reason I was going to leave than the thread I left on.

I am only three years Father Michael Mary's junior and in the years following Vatican II myself and legions of others were able to accept and assimilate the changes that were made. We were able to put self aside and accept the decisions of the Church, meeting in council, out of love for Holy Mother Church and in obedience to the authority of the Magisterium. It all boiled down to one word......OBEDIENCE. Work for change from within the church, not without it.

Please forgive my bluntness, I could go on but have a hard time putting it all into words and do not wish to ramble.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us;
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us.

Bill

P.S. - By the way,yes I do love Orthodoxy!

Bill, thank you for that heartfelt post - some of my thoughts as well. I myself, when I was teaching for the SSPX, prayed daily for the reconciliation. But that did not come, and as an Eastern Christian in communion with Rome I had to make a choice and left my teaching position. That was nearly 20 years ago now.

It was not easy - I was constantly defending the Eastern Churches from ultramontanist attacks (I even had one SSPX priest and multiple laity tell me that as a Greek Catholic I would likely enjoy a lower rank of heaven, if I made it). Finally enough was enough, and a choice had to be made and I left.

We have before us now the admission: Yes, Father, I did have some wonderful times and students in those days. Some even from New Zealand whom I'm sure you knew as well. We had a very good faculty - nearly all of whom left when it was apparent a reconciliation was not to be to be - those faculty deciding to remain in communion with the visible hierarchy and Magesterium.

But here we have it - completely irregular from a canonical standpoint by admission.

Fr. Sim a.k.a. "Michael Mary", as I have posited, does not currently enjoy any valid, demonstrable Latin or Byzantine faculties through the visible, canonical hierarchies of either the Latin or Ukrainian Catholic Churches.

He does not belong to any existing province of Redemptorists, nor has he been given any permission from a validly erected Redemptorist province to start a foundation, nor accept vocations. The Constitutions and Statutes of the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer of which I have a copy, both the old and new versions, are quite explicit about the relationship of an obedient CSsR to his province, and also detail the process of establishing a new house.

As he has no recognized relation to a province, his foundation can in no way be considered a properly erected house of the Congregation. He therefore is not being fully honest in using the descriptive CSsR after his name - as he is no longer part of the Congregation as recognized by Rome.

Archbishop Lefevbre, while he did have the "ability" to illicitly but validly ordain priests, did NOT have the canonical authority to erect any new houses without the due process of the Congregation, which is solely recognized by Rome as able to do so. Fr. Sim persists in opposing the visible hierarchy of the Latin and Ukrainian Catholic Churches.

I pray for his reconciliation and all of those sowing seeds of dissention in our Greek Catholic faithful that they come back to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and Her visible hierarchy of Patriarch Lubomyr and Pope Benedict XVI.

Yes, Father - that we may one day all celebrate the Liturgy together in communion is also my prayer. I would be happy to be your deacon singing Slavonic litanies - when you decide to reconcile with the Catholic Church and obtain proper canonical status - and abandon your life as a vagus outside of any recognized jurisdiction.
FDD

Dearest in Christ Father Deacon Randal Brown
I return to the point of a retraction. I think it is unjust and unwise to dismiss this matter which I have said is a matter of justice. It is not sufficient to say
This is an unthoughtful response. I gave you the Protocol number and the date of issue for the certificate. It is a Roman document and all Roman documents are registered not by who signed them but by their Protocol reference. In this case 45/82 of 21st September 1984 with the Sacred Congregation of Oriental Churches. Thus we are not dealing with what you term But rather with a Roman Document that either was or was not issued. You claim that it was not. You claim that I never had faculties with either Vl. Michael of Paris nor Vl. Ivan of Melbourne. And in consequence you claim that I am a fraud. Not so soon nor so easily dear Father Deacon. I asked you: I hope that in the charity and justice of Christ you will do just that.
Devotedly in Him,
Fr. Michael Mary, C.SS.R.

Dear Father DIAKon,

I apologise for having offended you in my discussion with Father Michael!

I asked several specific questions of Father Michael and he responded. After having read his responses, I said I agreed with his comments on those specific issues.

That does not mean that I agree with everything that anyone would say and nomatter what!

FYI, I am fully loyal to my Primate/Patriarch and his Synod, as well as to Rome.

Alex

This thread is getting out of hand, what with accusations of fraud and etc.

I have not had a chance to follow this thread closely, but it appears to me that Fr. Michael Mary was once a priest who had faculties from a Greek Catholic bishop, but that now he is not currently in complete communion with the Catholic Church (from the Catholic Church�s point of view). It is my understanding that the Transalpine Redemptorists are an independent group that is not under the authority of Rome.

I ask Diak to be more charitable with Father Michael Mary.

I ask Father Michael Mary to be clear about his status regarding his communion with Rome. I also ask Father Michael Mary to be more charitable in his posts. The Orthodox are not the enemy. Pope John Paul the Great did teach us that the only thing lacking in communion with the Orthodox is communion itself. Such a statement does not resolve the remaining issues (such as papal authority) but it does indicate that Rome considers the level of communion that does exist to be, at a minimum, nearly complete.

Admin

Well I am sorry if that offends you...but I CANNOT out of conscience internally respect a priest(s) who:

1) Lies
2) Embezzles, steals, etc.
3) Molest Children (as we all know about via our precious media)
4) Have sexual activity with other person(s)
5) Who is very cold, rude, disrepectful, indifferent, etc. towards or about others
6) Abuse his position(s)
7) Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

So, if priests are TRULY a representative of Christ, then he cannot do these things above, because Christ Himself would never have done these things and more.

These priests would be a disgrace to Christ if they represent Him and do all these evil acts using their consecrated hands.

I simply cannot trust many priests these days, including some bishops. Many of them don't hold water well representing Christ.

That has NOTHING to do with disrespect or whatever of their priestly office. I respect the priesthood per-se completely and unconditionally. But I do NOT respect men themselves who are priests. Does that make sense? Just in case if you didn't understand me...I don't respect the MEN in there...but do respect the priesthood.

I'm sorry to have to be blunt.

And now, Teen Logos, you shouldn't speak to me in such an authoritative tone. That doesn't suprise me because we've discussed a long time ago on this forum about your tendency to speak in authority which you have no right in doing.

I MUST MUST trust my instincts...I must FOLLOW my gut feelings about things...

I had funny feelings about Fr. Michael Mary or Fr. Sims or whatever his name is...and sure enough after reviewing this post which Randy presented...

So many times in the past, I have "internal alarms" going off inside...about priests and people, etc. It goes RIGHT just about 95% of the time (Yeah I'm not perfect). I've ignored my "internal alarms" so many times in the past and then I'd suffer greatly in that consequences of ignoring it.

It's a GIFT that I have which I cannot deny and which I must humbly accept.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine