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Yes, I agree with the administrator that this post is going out of hand...

And I admit that I had some nasty words spewed out of my hands on this post, which should not have happened...which isn't nice.

Just because other people did it doesn't mean that I should do the same. SO for that, I apologize, in the spirit of Great Fast.

I'm not going to blame on the moon or anything for my behavior, but it's unusual last Friday for me to be acting that way. Whatever words I used...I apologized...but my meaning or intention behind that thought...I'll stand by.

Thanks for the forgivness.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear Spdundas you said:

"So many times in the past, I have "internal alarms" going off inside...about priests and people, etc. It goes RIGHT just about 95% of the time (Yeah I'm not perfect). I've ignored my "internal alarms" so many times in the past and then I'd suffer greatly in that consequences of ignoring it.

It's a GIFT that I have which I cannot deny and which I must humbly accept."

I say:

It's the gift of discernment given you by God. Thank Him for it.

As for your posts, It's fine to give your opinion, but try to keep them 'vague', and not mention names or be too exact. It's safer that way, and people won't be scandalized.

Just an opinion from one that's had many experiencs with the 'worst', and had certain 'feelings', (as well as seeing), too...

Zenovia

Dear Friends,

In my humble view, I think that we should be able to discuss certain topics without going after each other personally.

Father Michael Mary is an interesting person and so is Father DIAKon. Both come from places where there are lots of sheep . . .

Can we not discuss specific issues and judge them on the basis of their merits alone?

For example, the fact that I found Father Michael Mary's analysis of certain issues to be agreeable does not mean that I necessarily want to go and become a Redemptorist Novice on Papa Stronsay (I'm under Papa Benedict ).

And I don't think that Father Michael's group would accept a married novice anyway . . . I understand that Celtic monastics of long ago were allowed to keep their wives however . . .

The traditionalist movement is one that is truly being taken seriously by Rome. And the issue of "Latinized/Easternized" parts of the UGCC is a real one and while I don't agree with all of what Father Michael Mary has said about "Patriarch" Lubomyr , he is certainly more than intellectually capable to articulate and defend his views.

If the UGCC needs anyone to defend its Latinized parishes, we have lots of support in that department from the Basilian Fathers!

Father Michael Mary's group seems to be reacting against what it perceives to be a movement toward eventual "reunion with Orthodoxy" within the UGCC as a result of all the talk about "Orthodox in communion with Rome" therein.

There are ongoing tensions in that department and they are not likely to dissipate any time soon.

There is a lot of history and social dynamics going on there and, as a social science teacher, I thought that Father Michael Mary's take on the situation in Ukraine was intriguing and quite perceptive - and certainly not what I had expected from a Latin traditionalist like him.

I put several pointed questions to Father Michael and he responded to them, diplomatically overlooking my question about Patriarch Lubomyr.

Obviously he is not in agreement with him, as we know. It is good that Father Michael chose not to say anything nasty about the Patriarch as he is my relative by marriage and blood is thicker than salt water from the Irish or North Seas! )

Hopefully, Father DIAKon won't be mad at me for too long . . .

Alex

SPDundas,

Seriously, try and calm down.

I do not ask you to respect the person of every priest. Some priests are evil people. Duh.

I'm asking you to respect Christ's Person present in the priest through his ordination to the Holy Priesthood.

Don't let your dislike of me get in the way of respecting the office of the priest, who acts in persona Christi.

Logos Teen

Dear Alex
I have been wanting to respond to your question: Let me begin with the last: why the view that we are out of Communion with Rome? I have been thinking about what Diak called me 'Vargus' which is a very painful title.
But earlier today is said YES! 'Vargus, hit me with it and let me feel all of it; "Unworthy Vargus for the sake of Christ." A title I do not deserve because it is too great a title for someone like me; but I suppose if it is true then it is true. I will be "Unworthy Vargus for the sake of Christ."
Let me explain: I left my monastery because, whatever the judgment of others may be (and may they have them), I could not in conscience say the New Mass; I had studied the matter for months on end and I concluded [only for myself]: this is the unworthy worship of God and I must stop. I prayed for a week before going that if I was doing wrong, that God in His Mercy would have me die before I left.
I told my superiors that I was going to Econe.
My Rector permitted me to take a monastery chalice; my Provincial never insisted thatI remain because he could find no work for me with the Old Mass; and my presence in the province was not good for our reputation. I was not old. I was a 32 year old,the youngest in the province. He let me go, as it were without a prohibition.
Then with God's Providence I went to Econe in March 1987. Thus Vargus. But Vargus for Christ's sake; I bless Archbishop Lefebvre for taking me in.
It was the holy Archbishop himself who blessed the foundation of our monastery: Vargii in a monastery for Christ. But before him, on 8th December 1987 the project was praised or approved verbally by His Eminence Cardinal Gagnon the Papal Visitor to Econe (it was on that date that I asked him to renew my bi-ritual certificate.)
I appreciate St Athanasius deprived of his churches and the clergy with him. Who am I to be in their company (and many would say that I am not) but I am inspired at the thought of those who suffered something for the Faith.
Will it be resolved? Who knows. It is considered 'out of communion with Rome'.
All I know is that it was not possible to remain for the following kind of internal reason of conscience: Eg. In the time before I left I telephoned the Provincial on Holy Thursday telling him I could not say the New Mass. He said: Use the First Eucharistic Prayer. But it was not that simple. I feared in myself the very words we say in the Byzantine Mass: I will not give Thee the kiss as did Judas... and on Holy Thursday I felt that strongly in my soul. That night I prayed the Ukrainian Liturgy alone.... (no polyphony that night, just a Liturgy to be close to Christ in the Garden...

Now the generator is going to go off and I must stop but it is something of a beginning to answers to your good questions. Yes, Vargus! After the persecutions for the holy images people were proud of their sufferings, their wounds and their names. They had wandered the earth. Here we live on a rock in the ocean. We bless and kiss the chains of Peter. I embrace the name of Vargus -not vargus for what I consider to be bad motives and disobedience, but I conceive it as being for no other reason than for the love of Christ and the fear of the unholy kiss.
Devotedly and humbly
Fr Michael Mary, C.SS.R.,
Unworthy Vargus for the sake of Christ.

Dear Vargus in Christ!

Clearly, if you felt that strongly about it, I don't see how you could do otherwise - perhaps the circumstances in which you were in etc.

That's none of my business and I have a conscience of my own that needs heeding to.

May St Colum MacFelim O'Niall of Iona, who himself left his beloved Eire to seek God in the desert of a lonely island bless you always!

(That pesky generator!)

May I ask one further question about your Redemptorists?

Are they not a society of missionary priests? Were they ever intended to live as a monastic community?

Happy Old Calendar Feast of St Benedict the Great of Nursia, Father of Western Monasticism.

Alex (who is currently being called something worse than "vargus" on another site . . .)

Father, bless!

I don�t think that anyone questions your right of conscience.

Regarding your communion with Rome, how exactly does Rome view you? Your refusal to celebrate the current Roman Catholic Liturgy would seem to place you at odds with Rome. Do you submit to a Catholic bishop, one in full and complete communion with Rome (i.e., one who is in full and complete communion with Pope Benedict XVI)? [Whether or not you are friends with them is a different matter than the actual lines of authority.]

If yes, can you name the Catholic bishop you are in authority to?

If not, that�s OK. You are free to follow your conscience.

But if Rome does not consider you to be in complete and full communion with her then you should not suggest that you are.

Prayers and best wishes,

Admin

I did not react with completely Christian deportment from the opening statement of Fr. of using a "false name", and I ask forgiveness of my intemperance from that point on.

I would still like to see answers to the following questions from Fr. Michael Mary so I can understand his relationship to Rome:
1. What bishops do you now enjoy current valid faculties through for the Latin and Byzantine rites; (2) Which province of Redemptorists are you attached to, and who is your Provincial - as you identify yourself as CSsR, and according the Statutes one must belong to a Province as a CSsR; and (3) what is different about your liturgical usage that necessitates being in opposition to Patriarch Lubomyr while referring to yourselves as Catholic? I believe you did admit to being in an "irregular" situation canonically. Thank you in advance for the reply and have a blessed remainder of the Fast.
FDD

n.b. Nichoho, brat' Olexandr...

...... why the view that we are out of Communion with Rome?

I could not in conscience say the New Mass; I had studied the matter for months on end and I concluded [only for myself]: this is the unworthy worship of God and I must stop. As a Roman Catholic in communion with Rome I too hear bells (and maybe whistles) going off, but they are not from Papa Stronsay.

Sweetest Lord forgive me,

Bill

Dearest in Christ Fr Deacon
I sent you a private mail yesterday.
Fr. Michael Mary, C.SS.R.
Unworthy Vargus for the love of Christ

Dearest in Christ Father Administrator
Let me answer your questions:

Rome views us in the exact same light as it does the SSPX.We are under the umbrella of the Society of St Pius X but not in a direct way for we are not a parallel Church within the Church. The Society, and the many other traditional Religious Communities that are under the 'umbrella' of the SSPX, are called by Rome "irregular" which means that we (priests and religious) are not officially accepted by any bishops anywhere in the Catholic Church of today although some bishop and even cardinals are sympathetic to our stand and encourage us.

It does. We are not considered as another religion or as some say 'denomination'; we are not part of the 'outreach' of Ecumenism. We are considered as part of the internal problems of the Church for which the Pope presently is trying to find a solution. That meeting of the Pope is to take place on April 7th. It is blatant that the Western Church has enormous problems and has gone to unacceptable extremes in matters of Liturgy and Doctrine. Some have abandoned Her. Some have remained with Her even though treated as outcasts and vargii; our perseverence has continued and today that is at least being taken seriously by the Pope and the authorities in Rome. It is an unusual situation for Catholic priests to be in; but these are quite unusual time to live in. The unusual situation of the Church gives, as an equal consequence, unusual situations for some of those who remain in Her.

No. Not out of defiance for authority, but out of necessity. The virtue of Religion (by which we are bound to give God the worthy worship which is His due) comes before the virtue of Obedience (by which we are bound to submit to lawful authority); this is a recognised fact. At the present time, due to the positions of bishops and Major Religious superiors we are unable to fulfil the virtue of religion within the present Church structures: both monastic and Local Church structures. Therefore, regretably, we must fulfil the virtue of religion even though we cannot submit to the lawful authorities as long as they do not make Religion possible within the structures they are providing.

You may be right, perhaps I have suggested this in something that I have written, if so I apologise. But I do not know where I have suggested that I am in .Perhaps you could point this out to me. I thought I made it clear that we are having our case reviewed by Rome; yesterday I agreed to the term 'Vargus' ( ... but for the love of Christ) and this certianly does suggest incomplete and not full communion. Although, I admit that I have also said that Cardinal Gagnon on December 8th 1987 verbally praised the project of founding traditional Redemptorists, and here I should add that he said that to do it one would have to work "outside the structures." I also asked: Did he renew my indult? He never communicated on the matter either way and I have nothing in writing.

In terms of the Redemptorists: The Novus Ordo Redemptorists have nothing to do with us and we have no line of Obedience with them, we are "outside the structures" of the Order and we try to make this clear by calling ourselves "Transalpine Redemptorists" and using Religious Names -a point which the Novus Ordo Redemptorists acquiesced on during the dispute we had with them about confusion between the two bodies; the dispute was mentioned in an earlier post. They know who we are and we let the matter rest there. We are NOT associated. We are not in any province of their organisation and nor would we want to be unless they became traditional. As soon as news of our traditional foundation was known to my Redemptorist superiors in 1988 I was expelled from the Congregation which again I receive for the love of Christ. These are simply the facts; they are not the justice of the matter which is known to God alone. I have never left the Congregation; it has left me. What I did I did with the blessing of Archbishop Lefebvre, who, in my humble opinion is another St Athanasius, who gave his life for the triumph of orthodoxy in the Roman liturgy and in the Catholic Church of our time.
One man's situation in the Church, and one man's recognition of Archbishop Lefebvre.
Yours devotedly and humbly
Fr Michael Mary, C.SS.R.

Dear Father Michael Mary,

Well, I hope that His Holiness Pope Benedict and the Society of St Pius X can find a mutually agreeable solution and put this internal issue to an end Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam!

And leave the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church alone!

Alex

Father Michael Mary,

Thank you for your post. It does clear up the confusion.

I will pray for you and your community; for God�s blessings in all things and especially for the fulfillment of the Lord�s will that all may be as one.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Father Michael Mary being a Redemptorist, it reminds me of when they had their missions in Western Canada among our early immigrants.

They couldn't properly pronounce "Redemptorist" so they nicknamed them, "Dentrists . . ."

Isn't that a hoot?

No?

I'll get back to work then . . .

Alex

Dear Father Michael Mary,

Please forgive me if I come across as rude and offensive in this post or the posts I've already made. I really don't mean to be. If anything, I am confused. This is why I wrote of bells (and whistles). I am a Roman Catholic and I believe what you are telling me, among other things, in your posts is that my worship (i.e. the worship of my Roman Catholic brethren, priests, bishops and His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI) is not worthy of God. Am I correct in this presumption? If so, what might you have to say to the Holy Father regarding this? I don't really expect you to answer that, but it would be nice if you came back after April 7th to tell us how the meeting went. Please don't mistake my asking these questions for cynicism or sarcasm, I am being sincere.

Wishing you all good and every blessing,

Bill