www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West General Absolution East and West

Dear all,

Please forgive me if I don't get back for a bit - someone's new PC is demanding attention - and he wants the Internet line

Roll on the advent of ADSL soon

I will be back on this as there are a few other bits and pieces on which I need elucidation.

Truly a fascinating topic and we seem to be so much in agreement here - it's wonderful

[ 07-31-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Dear Friends in Christ,

Early on in this thread Mor Ephrem said << In some Eastern services (Byzantine and Syrian), I see a formula(e) for a communal confession of every sin under the sun, but still communal, and thus general.
How could a general absolution do any good without a personal, private confession, an opportunity to confess, be sorry, receive guidance, and then forgiveness? General confession sounds to me like "I've sinned, but don't care to admit it to a priest, so I'll go to church, and Father will zap my sins away". >>

This certainly struck home and Sharon made another comment<< Because to speak the name of something/somebody is to have power over it. It is true for the deity, it is true for the demonic - and it is true in our battle with sin. To overcome it we MUST name it and speak it. >>

Then Lance entered with a refresher course in the history of confession - parts of which I did not know and brought it up to the present time . Now this is where my practice of Confession as an RC may well differ from yours.

As a convert I was [being totally unused to the practice of Confession] taught that in Confession I should not concentrate on producing so-to-speak a �shopping list of sins� - but look at my sins and think about what had caused me to sin and confess that failing , or two or more.This would/could lead to a helpful discussion as to how to avoid that failing in the future but obviously this [ the guidance aspect] would depend on the priest. This is what I tried for many years to do, and Confession became rather irregular and more and more problematical. I personally found the use of the Traditional Confessional difficult and after I had been trapped in fire it was impossible - a panic state because of claustrophobia would set in. So for me Confession face-to-face was the only option but finding the time and place [ oh and the necessary priest ] was not easy. So I fell away from it - and availed myself of General Absolution in our Parish - honest I did , and was glad to be able to say that I had been to Confession . I don�t suppose I was the only one either that felt that way - then or now.

I suspect part of the problem is the definition of �serious sin�.

As we all know during the Celebration of Mass [ and yes I do here include The Divine Liturgy ] we do admit our failings and ask forgiveness so yes, it is a Confession and yes, this is a form of General Confession and the forgiveness is �General� being extended to all present but being totally legalistic here it is not �General� as in the Celebration of Reconciliation as in Rite 3 of the RC Church.

BTW Slavyanskiy << I was under the impression that RCs are expected to go to private confession as soon as possible after a (very rare) general absolution if they had serious sins to confess. >> Spot on - if you want [ and I shouldn�t think you reallydo ]I will give you chapter and verse from the Canons of the Church, the CCC , Misericordia Dei etc �cos I have had to collect them all for my own purposes.

Alex then referred back to his original comment which had sparked this <<The reason why this issue raises so many red flags for Catholics in Canada is precisely because of the fact that private confession appears to be falling off.
And no one wants to help that process by allowing people a General Absolution whereby they don't have to enumerate their sins etc.>>

And now for the first time since I ventured here I am going to disagree with Alex <<What the Gen. Abs. does do is offer us a sense of the communal dimensions of sin, that sin is not just a private matter, it does do harm to the people around us, our community, society and the Church.>> - No Alex, a Communal Penitential /Reconciliation Service will do that as it is constructed in such a way to point out the communal aspects of sin and its consequences.

General Absolution is the forbidden Rite 3 to be used only in times of war and the like when Individual Confession is not possible. But having disagreed with that bit I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of that post.

So now to the nitty gritty - If we are all in agreement that venial sins are �dealt with� in the Penitential Rite during the Liturgy each time we go - and actually mean what we say., how do we get across the message that individual confession is necessary as well ?

I think that guidance can really only be given, as I think Lance said , by someone who really knows you - your Confessor/Director/Spiritual Father - but what happens if you really are too ashamed to approach your normal Confessor ? So far that has not happened to me - as I said to Father John when I started Direction with him, that I realised that total honesty was a pre-requisite and with one exception I have never held anything back from him. The one time I was evasive I was reminded that , oh so very very gently, that he knew I had a problem but if I could not be honest and tell him, then he could not help and that did it - the flood gates opened.

A quote from Mor Ephrem earlier to finish for today <<I am enjoying the conversation. Keep it coming. >>

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Dear Angela,

Could you double-space your next post?

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you were disagreeing with in what I said.

Could you refer back to it and explain it in simple terms to enlighten this neophyte to Gen. Absolution?

Again, I was only thinking out loud.

One of our bishops tried to introduce this in our Eparchy way back when, but it didn't fly.

Alex

Sorry Alex - didn't mean to be difficult . General Absolution refers [ at least in the RC Church] only to the Rite 3 Reconciliation - when the whole congregation make a confession together and receive Absolution at that time. As has been said earlier anyone who receives General Absolution is bound to confess individually any serious sins that were included in that General Absolution before they avail themselves of that particualr Rite again] - you don't want chapter and verse surely ]

However a Penitential Service can be held at any time and does not need to incorporate individual Confession, in order to emphasis the effect that sin has on the Community.Obviously these services are normally held at important times in the Church year and tend to be concentrated on Advent and Lent - since they are times for us of Preparation.

We do now hold a Penitential Service for the Parish when our little ones celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation for the first time, and during this Service they make their first individual Confession - as well as anyone else in the Parish who wishes to avail themself of the opportunity.

I apologise for confusing you - please forgive me

Dear Angela,

No problem, now you're really on to something!

So for the Rite 3, the congregation confesses together, but I assume in general terms?

Also, in the Latin Church, do all three Rites have the same "sacramental effect" as far as forgiving sins is concerned?

St John of Kronstadt, an Orthodox Saint, was once surprised that so few were coming to Communion.

When he asked why, someone said that they had not had an opportunity to attend Confession.

So he asked them all to say their sins out loud and gave them a "General Absolution" right there and then!

Alex

__________________________________________________

Alex,

We have made the break through

Yes - Rite 3 - we normally start with a hymn and then the Liturgy of the Word - 2 readings split by a Psalm then the Gospel. Followed by a very very short Homily [ we suggest to the priest about 5 mins !!] a well prepared Examination of Conscience and then an act of Confession - the congregation stand for this and it is usually the Confiteor as at Mass. After that the Celebrant usually asks those who wish to receive the Absolution to kneel and it is then given. We then sit and the Celebrant gives us our Penance - as it is normally the Advent Service it is a suggestion that we think of others - and give Christmas presents and other goods to another Parish we have 'adopted' - a very poor Parish.[ I am told that the 13 very large sacks we donated last year ensured that every man woman and child in that Parish had a proper Christmas present, and a useful one - ie the kids got toys and things like gloves hats jumpers etc. So did the adults ] The Service closes with another hymn, the Blessing and a Recessional Hymn. The whole Service is built round a theme suggested by the Celebrant and the Liturgy Group actually construct it - including the Exam of Conscience. The Service for a Rite 3 Reconciliation will normally last for about 1 hour - but for Rite 2 [ communal Service , Communal Exam. of Conscience, individual Confession individual Absolution] can take as long as necessary -[ I have known it to take 2 1/2 hours - at least 3/4 of it was for confessions and our poor Cantor was running out of music !]

Now for your next question :- All 3 Rites are Sacramental and providing the penitent wishes Absolution and is in the correct frame of mind then yes, his sins are forgiven. But the priest has to mention the bit about serious sins must be confessed before the next instance of General Absolution - and this is what folk definitely forget - and the Priests also sometimes forget to stress it.

Having said all that though just to confuse you a Penitential Service does not have to include Confession - but it usually does

Dear Angela,

Between Slav and Slave, you mean private confession, presumably for serious sins, correct?

I have no problem with these Latin Rites, as long as they don't take away from the significance of private confession.

If Lance is reading this with his all-seeing eyes, he might squint at this given his earlier posts about the history of private confession etc.

But I think what Christians in another age did reflects other aspects of what I, at least, conceive to be a more openly penitential life then.

Today, I think the problem is that we don't like to even admit that we can sin.

The Ven. Fulton J. Sheen once said, "It used to be that only Catholics believed in the Immaculate Conception. Now everyone thinks he is immaculately conceived!"

Anything that can help us come to a deeper realization of our sinfulness, of an experience of metanoia, as you say, and of repentance is what we should be after.

The Rites you describe appear to me to be an excellent resource for the pursuit of just such goals.

Alex

Alex,

Private Confession/one to one either with the anonymity of the traditional Confessional or Face-to-face as it is now often practiced is the Norm and indeed what the Church demands/expects. Rite 1 and Rite 2 are for normal use Rite 3 is the problematical one as it is not for general [everyday] use, But the problem seems to be that people do not wish/do not practice Confession for one reason or another. The theory that some believe is that if you provide a service with General Absolution then the people will return to individual Confession - I'm not at all convinced.

I would be very glad to hear the views of others here about this - what about the Clergy - I know that this[ General Absolution] is not an Eastern Practice - but Confession is Confession wherever you go and we all need it. As Sharon said - it is a sadly neglected Mystery.

Angela,

A couple years ago a priest friend of mine asked me to help him out - it was Lent, and his local Roman Catholic High School wanted him to do some sort of penance service for the students, which would be followed by opportunity for individual confession with 3 or 4 priests present.

Not being Roman Catholic, we didn't have Rites 1, 2 or 3 to choose from so we got creative, lifted some penitential stuff fom daily Matins, a psalm or two, and came up with a neat little 5-7 minute service. It went very nicely, and I settled in behind the lectern in the back to "sing cover" for the duration.

The lovely thing about chant is that all you really need is text. I sang through a couple of psalms, then turned to the Lenten Triodion, chanted most of the texts for that week, then for a change hopped into "The Spiritual Psalter" of St. Ephrem for a couple of selections before things wound down. I had plenty more in reserve.....

I'd asked for water before the service - I still have the school coffee mug they brought me. It's a bit faded now, but makes me smile remembering.

Sharon

Sharon

Curious thing - Cantor's needing water - our senior one is always accompanied by a bottle of the stuff and during Christmas and Holy Week the choir must get through gallons of the stuff - the congregation don't half look as we arrive clutching bottles of it !!

Chant must be useful - we don't and I'm sure it could behelpful. But as you said it is useful having a Cantor who can provide cover - not just useful - essential more like.

Angela,

As I get older, I get less and less tolerant of incense. Water helps immensely. The Particular Law for Ruthenians has what I thnkfully refer to as "the Cantor's clause" in the section on fasting & abstinence. It says "water may be taken at any time."

Being a nursing mother as well, some days I think I'm not a person, just a temporary fluid-holding device.

Best,

Sharon

Sharon

I kmow what you mean about incense - we use very little of it now because , I think, that maybe we have too many folk with respiratory problems and since our choir is up at the back - the incense seems to get to us - particularly if one server is 'on duty' -- Brendan loves it and we feel as if we are pushing the clouds apart as we [ sorry folks but it has to be said ] Eucharistic Ministers go down for Communion. I will have to have a word with him before Christmas .

Also singing for 2 + hours constantly is very drying.

Just to increase my education Sharon - are nursing mums also exempt from fasting ?

Dear Lance,

The Armenian Church I know has had a very strong monastic tradition. Our ancient homeland (which is now Turkey) is carved up with the ruins of monasteries built on mountains and in caves. Where did you get this idea?

Just curious,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

William,

My post should have been clearer. All the mentioned Churches, except the Malabars, had a strong monastic tradition, even the Assyrians. However, the monastic tradition pretty much died out in the Assyrian Church and got proportionally smaller in the Armenian and Syrian Churches in comparison to the Latin, Byzantine, and Coptic Churches. The monastic element had much less influence in the Assyrian, Armenian, and Syrian Churches in comparison to the other three. This is most readily discerned in the Divine Office which has remained almost a purely cathedral office in the Assyrian and Armenian Churches and somewhat so for the Syrian Church.

I find it an interesting parallel that the monastic-influenced Latin, Byzantine, and Coptic Churches all developed more or less the same practice regarding auricualr confession and absolution, whereas the Assyrian, Armenian, and Syrian Churches, less influenced by the monastics, either did not develop auricular confession at all, as is the case of the Assyrians, or as among the Syrians and Armenians, were more free in the application of generalized confession and general absolution.

Which again makes me raise the question which nobody seems to want to grapple with: "What do we make of this?" Are the Assyrians, Armenians, Syrians wrong? I don't think so and given that it is never brought up in ecumencial discussion I don't think the hierarchs of our Churches do either. If they are not wrong, then we must admit the Latin/Byzantine/Coptic practice might be good but cannot at all be said to be absolutely neccessary.

In Christ,
Lance

Lance,
I can see a problem here.

While I understand what you are saying I think you go to far and end up comparing apples to oranges.

While it is fine to look at the history of the development of one Church's Tradition, I do not think we can really compare two different Church Traditions.

For example, the Assyrian Liturgy lacks the words of Institution, does this mean that they are not absolutely necessary for the Byzantine Divine Liturgy?

As for you question, "What do we make of this?" is that this is how the Assyrian, Armenian, and Syrian traditions developed, I do not think they have any impact upon us.

This type of thing has caused some problems with in the Latin Church, when the Vatican declared that the Assyrian Liturgy is "ok" even though it lacks the words of Institution, there was an up roar among some Latin Catholics as they see this as a first step to removing the Words from their Liturgy. I don't think we can do this, nor can we change our tradition of auricular confession to be the generalized confession and general absolution of these churches, as this would be like the History of Latinization that we are now overcoming.

David