www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West "Just War" Theory

A while ago, I posted this question within a discussion of "just war" under Town Hall. But, I didn't find what I was looking for. So, posting here, with hopes others who might have insight into this will respond.

Relating to the so-called "just war theory," but not relating specifically to any given war or threatened war, I have a question:

BACKGROUND:

A two or three years ago, I heard a Byzantine bishop say that, though St. Augustine established the criteria for what is now known as the just war theory, St. Augustine himself wrote that in spite of the theory, there was no such thing as a just war. I enjoyed his talk and meant to ask him where I could find where St. Augustine indicated there is no such thing as a just war. I *finally* wrote this bishop nine or so months ago, but have yet to receive a response.

QUESTION:

Is anyone familiar with this information regarding St. Augustine? And, if so, can any point me to where he indicates that there is no such thing as a just war?

Thanks so much!

Kelly

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/jwhistory.shtml

http://www.breakpoint.org/Breakpoint/ChannelRoot/Home/A+Fact+Sheet+on+Just+War+Theory.htm

Kelly,

These links came from a RC priest friend. At one time he had permission to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church.

I hope these help you.

Best regards,

Paul

Dear Kelly,

I forget the reference in Augustine on war, but it is a real one.

The East has no such theory, as St Basil the Great ordered excommunication for all Christians in a country that goes to war.

He said that if they really behaved as Christians should, love would prevail throughout their society and war wouldn't occur.

However, the Eastern Church has been known to actually bless military arms and soldiers . . .

Alex

This is a summary of an article I read about the issue of the just war, according to the theology of St. Augustina and Thomas Aquinas. Here it goes:

1. The first condition for a war to be just is that it is declared by a legitimate authority. It is certainly true that the Parlament has the authority to declare a war for the self-defense of the territory or citizens of a nation, and that its concern for the common good of the US, for example, would help for the common good of the globe as a whole, given the mutual interdependence of nations.

However, at nation by itself does not at all have the authority to perform interventions agaisnt the sovereignty of other nations. It is true, however, that the people can rebel against an unjust ruler who has lost his right to rule, and appeal for foreign aid. This does not appear to be the case in Iraq, for example, with the exception of exiled liberal dissidents. No nation has the right to declare war on another nation that is not a threat to it. So, it must be totally demonstrated that the offensive nation has full power and intention to attack the other one.

2. The second condition for a just war is that there must be a just cause, such as defense against an unjust attack or recuperation of what has been unjustly taken. A presumed but not proved existence of harmful weapons that could be used against other countries could not constitute a just cause. Another aspect of the just cause is that it must be proportionate to the evil, death, destruction, and human suffering that could be caused by the war. Since modern wars are indiscriminate and attack civilians, a war nowadays could cause enormous sufferings to the citizens of Iraq, if this is the case, and given the power that terrorism has got in the West, to the western citizens.. There is a manifest lack of proportionality here that makes any reasonable person wondering about the real reason for this war. If it is meant to guarantee the possetion of a certain good (oil, for example), it would be manifestly unjust.

3. The third condition described is a right intention, meant to be truly the re-establishment of justice which is aimed at. For a war to be just there must have been a true and open injustice commited against the offended nation, such as the invasion of territories, the attack of citizens, and not a simple indirect grieavance.

(In the case of Iraq, which is probably the reason you asked this question, the absence of a right intention is also manifest by the fact the US is not insisting that other countries give up to UN demands as it is with Iraq. To the contrary, the embargo against Iraq has caused the death of thousands of children.

Consequently, the proposed war on Iraq according to what st. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas teach, is not morally licit.)

Ooh ooh! War of Northern Aggression, in which the Catholic Church supported the South, but that's another thread!

ChristTeen287

you mean that act of Treason at Fort Sumter???

Pee shaw!

ChristTeen287

OK I'll bite, where the Papal ruling on that one?!

The Church is well documented to have offered Chaplains and Sister\Nurses to both sides equally, as is right and proper.

http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/HERITAGF/Issuenos/chl033.shtml

Irishman,

I really can't stand when when I take over peoples' threads and I do it way too much, so I am about to create a new topic over this issue, entitled "Church and the South in Civil War." My first post will answer your query.

I'll put it in the Town Hall.

ChristTeen287

I think people are forgetting who Iraq and others hate probably more then the USA, that is the state of Israel. Also Iraq will be found to be in union with Bin Laden and other terrorists which will fulfill the Just War and generate more approval.

Old Babylon has risen again.

james

I don't believe that the Catholic Church formulated any doctrine regarding support of the South.

Individual members of the Catholic church - may have expressed support for the South... be they lay people, priests, or bishops - but if they portrayed the Catholic Church as supporting the South - they had no ground by which to do that.

There are members in every church - who do not know church doctrine or teach it in a mistaken way, or assume some portion of church doctrine to support thier own desires. If they teach doctrine of the church in a mistaken way - that does not mean that the way they teach it - automatically make it become church doctrine. There are divisions of authority in any church.

The willingness to research what is the real doctrine of the Church and seprate that from other peoples un-educated opions of what the Chruch teaches - seperates those who want to become saints and those who want to just look like saints quickly. This is a general statement and is not directed in a personal way - being mistaken on one item (as I believe you are) does not cast a mold upon your whole spiritual life. We are human - afterall.

Can you point me to church doctrine or some offcial statements from the Vatican that would backup what you say? or should I just assume that you heard this somewhere or read it somewhere and it is akin to rumor which you would like us to believe without grounds?

Let us not forget North Korea and their missile that can reach the US.

Peter

I skip checking in to see if there are any responses for one day, and then there are several. Thanks for the various links, etc., everyone.

I am not particularly interested in that which St. Augustine wrote laying out circumstances for a just war; rather, I am interested to find out where it is that he said that irregardless of what he had written re: theory, that there is no such thing as a just war.

Alex, to clarify, are you saying that you know of this reference where St. Augustine said there is no just war? Also, could you point me to where St. Basil ordered excommunication of all Christians in a country that goes to war?

Thanks!

Kelly

Brother Peter,

I see you are from my home state and near where I grew up in the Dorchester, how is the weather?

James

RayK, please see my thread in the Town Hall about the South and the Church (whenever the "unchunking" thing stops).

ChristTeen287