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Originally posted by ebed melech:
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Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
[b] I won't be doing so any time soon as I am of the school of thought that the gifts that the Charismatics are so keen on were only granted for a limited time in the Church and that time has long since past.

I know that this idea is not popular among those who suppor the movement but it is a valid school of thought and one that a Catholic can hold to.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice
David,

You've peaked my curiosity - which gifts would that be?

Gordo [/b]
Those gifts that the early Church needed as there was no Canon of Scripture as of yet.

The Gift of Speaking in Tongues (the one mentioned in the Bible, what occured at Pentacost). Now this one might happen in very limited circumstances but I doubt highly that it happens very much, if at all, in the developed world.

The Gift of Prophecy and the Gift of Interpretation as I have seen practiced in Charismatic groups.

Those Gifts that the Charismatic groups think most highly of.

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Originally posted by Alfonsus:
Several Popes from Paul VI up to John Paul II gave this movement endorsmenet.
I'm not sure that is exactly a ringing endorsement. I mean you're talking about 3 Roman Pontiffs ... okay 4 if you include Pope Benedict XVI out of 266 Roman Pontiffs and a span of just 40 years out of a 2,000 year history.

And in the overall history of the Roman Catholic Church those 40 years aren't exactly banner years to be used as an example for how the Church should continue.

Quote
Originally posted by Alfonsus:
Sure, excesses and abuses are everywhere. But if we read the definition, vision and mission of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as lined in ICCRS charter approved by Holy See, surely it is more than just psychological phenomenon due to lack of fellowship.
You're right. It is likely more than just a psycholoical phenomenon. It is also the active and intentional protestantization of the Roman Catholic Church. Not something that I think is a great idea.

If we are to judge a tree by its fruit then you should look at what the Charismatic Renewal movement over the last 30 years or so has brought to the Church. If the bad outweighs the good (which I strongly believe it does) then it is not a good thing in and of itself, even if some good things have come from it.

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Carol, in your post you stated: "If the bad outweighs the good (which I strongly believe it does) then it is not a good thing in and of itself, even if some good things have come from it."

I am not personally involved in the Charismatic Renewal, yet I am familiar with it. My mother was very involved (she wasn't Catholic), and she often took me to prayer meetings as a child. This in turn led to my interest in Catholicism, and my conversion to the Catholic Church.

Our Lord said that we should judge the tree by its fruit. Overall, those involved in the Renewal are evangelized and committed to Christ. They have a fire and zeal that is often lacking in our parishes.

Father Raniero Cantalamessa is the Papal Preacher, and is very involved in the Renewal movement. I'd encourage you, and others to read anything by him and see a positive example of the Renewal.

Pax!

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the Charismatic movement in Roman Catholicism was the bomb in the seventies. I attended a couple of their meetings in Chattanooga with my now sainted Godmother who was active in the movement. I guess she found the warm hearted intensely personal faith manifested by Charismatics that seemed to be lacking in the regular parish. I guess there were times she missed such a faith that she remembered from her youth at First Presbyterian (PCA) in Chattanooga.
yes there were excesses in the movement at large. there was even one prayer group in upstate New York that wound up leaving Holy Mother Church as they read the Bible in a literal way, and out of the contexts of Church History and Tradition.
there is a group in Chattanooga that calls itself the Catholic Charismatic Church, obviously a part of a larger movement. I guess what I mentioned about the prayer group in New York is but a source of inspiration to that movement.
while I admired the Charismatic movement for filling the void in a sometimes cold, remote and overly intellectual and political atmosphere of the average Roman Catholic parish, the emotional exuberance in the Charismatic movement aliented me.
somehow, there needs to be a balance between the two extremes.
Much Love,
Jonn

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Originally posted by JonnNightwatcher:
the Charismatic movement in Roman Catholicism was the bomb in the seventies. I attended a couple of their meetings in Chattanooga with my now sainted Godmother who was active in the movement. I guess she found the warm hearted intensely personal faith manifested by Charismatics that seemed to be lacking in the regular parish. I guess there were times she missed such a faith that she remembered from her youth at First Presbyterian (PCA) in Chattanooga.
yes there were excesses in the movement at large. there was even one prayer group in upstate New York that wound up leaving Holy Mother Church as they read the Bible in a literal way, and out of the contexts of Church History and Tradition.
there is a group in Chattanooga that calls itself the Catholic Charismatic Church, obviously a part of a larger movement. I guess what I mentioned about the prayer group in New York is but a source of inspiration to that movement.
while I admired the Charismatic movement for filling the void in a sometimes cold, remote and overly intellectual and political atmosphere of the average Roman Catholic parish, the emotional exuberance in the Charismatic movement aliented me.
somehow, there needs to be a balance between the two extremes.
Much Love,
Jonn
John,
I agree with you on this.

I have an issue with this as it seems that they are creating yet another group within the Church. It seems as if the Church is spliting internally. Every parish in the Latin Church and many in the various Byzantine Churches already have multiple Sunday Liturgies. This splits a parish community. Instead of having St <name here> parish, you have the 7:45 St <name here> parish community, the 9:45 St <name here> parish community, and the 11:45 St <name here> parish community.

A friend of mine attended a parish for years and did not even know a friend of his was also a member until he went to the Mass at a different time than usual.

Now we are adding all these prayer groups and third orders, which are a good thing, but when they start to have their own Masses they cause further division within the community.

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Hi,

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I have to say that even though the leadership of the "Renewal" might say and believe these things it does not always carry over that those in the movement practice what the leadership says or wants.
True. And not only that, I need to repeat myself: Not all charismatic groups in the Catholic Church are affiliated with the Renewal movement. Of course, what the Renewal movement leadership thinks affects these other groups even less.

Quote
How can one ever hope to do this? Every Charismatic I have ever met and every thing I have ever read states that praying in tongues is proof of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".
Well, then you have met poorly formed people.

There is no sure external sign of you have had this experience.

If you have the conviction that Jesus Christ is the Lord, that He died for your sins and that He rose from the dead and Lives forever. Conviction to the point of being a witness of these things, then I'd say at some point you had experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".

Tongues or no tongues.

I, for one, do not pray in tongues.

Quote
By the way, I put this in quotes becuase I believe that the Sacrament of Baptism is the true and only Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is no pseudo-baptism that many Charismatics speak of because if there is then there are two classes of Christians, those who have it and those who don't.
Oh, and I totally agree with you. The label we've attached to this experience is rather unfortunate, if you ask me. It is not a second sacrament of Baptism. It is not a sacrament at all.

Perhaps the name connection comes from the idea that this experience should come together with our Christian Initiation, however, because most of us were infants when that happened, our rational minds some times are not open to accept the Grace we received at that time.

Through this experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" what happens is that we open ourselves to our Baptismal Grace and therefore the name connection.

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I know that this idea is not popular among those who suppor the movement but it is a valid school of thought and one that a Catholic can hold to.
Of course. And I respect that.

Just like not all the Church is expected to be Latin or Byzantine or Syriac and just like not all the Church is expected to be Franciscan or Dominican or Basilian, the "New Movements" in the Church are not intended to appeal to all Catholics.

For the very reasons you will probably not visit a charismatic prayer group in the near future, I will not take a Cursillo or a Marriage Encounter or participate in a Pro-Life demonstration.

Do I think there's anything wrong with those folks? Of course not! It is just that those are not my cup of tea.

However, I can work side by side with members of any of those or any other Catholic group in good standing.

That is the beauty of the Catholic Church, we do not have to be identical to be in communion with each other.

Shalom,
Memo

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Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
Those gifts that the early Church needed as there was no Canon of Scripture as of yet.

The Gift of Speaking in Tongues (the one mentioned in the Bible, what occured at Pentacost). Now this one might happen in very limited circumstances but I doubt highly that it happens very much, if at all, in the developed world.

The Gift of Prophecy and the Gift of Interpretation as I have seen practiced in Charismatic groups.

Those Gifts that the Charismatic groups think most highly of.
Interesting points. I would only say that many of these gifts were demonstrated by saints within the Eastern and Western traditions. As extraordinary charisms of the Holy Spirit, they are not necessarily signs of personal holiness (remember the prophecy of Balaam's Ass?...not to be confused with Tim Lahaye's prophetic/pathetic "My Left Behind" series. biggrin ).

But I digress...

Prophecy is one of those interesting charisms. I don't think in its biblical sense it is intended exclusively as a prediction of the future. Rather, it is the ability to interpret the "signs of the times" according to the divine economia. (Sometimes that involves predicting the future, but not always.)

I'm still not sure about the theological ground for "speaking in tongues" in the way that it is practiced in most Charismatic prayer groups. (Although, interestingly enough, there is a "feel" much like the Greek chanted "issan" (sp?) with layers of harmony when it is practiced. Like you, I favor a reading of the gift of tongues as in languages that are foreign to the speaker. There are examples of this in many missionary accounts, even in modern times.

But the renewal is certainly more than that phenomenon. It has more to do with animating the laity.

BTW, I think you forgot healing and spiritual warfare, which are very much part of the movemet.

God bless,

Gordo

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Originally posted by Sea Knight:
I am not personally involved in the Charismatic Renewal, yet I am familiar with it. My mother was very involved (she wasn't Catholic), and she often took me to prayer meetings as a child. This in turn led to my interest in Catholicism, and my conversion to the Catholic Church.

Our Lord said that we should judge the tree by its fruit. Overall, those involved in the Renewal are evangelized and committed to Christ. They have a fire and zeal that is often lacking in our parishes.

Father Raniero Cantalamessa is the Papal Preacher, and is very involved in the Renewal movement. I'd encourage you, and others to read anything by him and see a positive example of the Renewal.

Pax!
While I have no doubt that there are zealous and orthodox Catholics involved in this movement the majority of my personal experience has been with zealous, poorly catechized individuals who while they have zeal have no understanding of a true and orthodox practice of the faith.

I fail to see how it benefits anyone to be zealous if their zeal is misguided.

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Originally posted by Carole:
I fail to see how it benefits anyone to be zealous if their zeal is misguided.
So what is your point?

Gordo

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It seems to me that Carole is touching on something I have been thinking for awhile. Our culture and society once valued reason and logic - "I think, therefore I am." Granted, reason and logic can be carried to such extremes they become cold, impersonal, and detached in situations where those are not helpful qualities to have. A better motto for our times might be, I feel, therefore I am. We truly live in the land of the overwrought, hysterical, and touchy-feely where many are "experience" seekers. Carole is correct that hysteria appeals to people who don't understand the inherent reasonableness of their faith and the divine logic that is at its core. I find the pearl of great price in the writings of the early Church fathers, not in the sentimentality and emotion of the moment. Perhaps I am not saying this well, but it seems to me that charismatic worship fits our overwrought and touchy-feely culture - it's based on "me" and what I feel and experience.

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Well said ByzanTN. I agree, most of what passes for Christian conviction these days is self delusion and sheer emotionalism. Just like Mormons say they can know the validity of the Book of Mormon by the "burning in the bosom" when they read the book. I get the same feeling when I watch "Braveheart!" :p

Freeeeeeedommmmmmmm! biggrin

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Originally posted by byzanTN:
Perhaps I am not saying this well, but it seems to me that charismatic worship fits our overwrought and touchy-feely culture - it's based on "me" and what I feel and experience.
It seems to me that that is painting with a pretty broad brush. Sure enough, the movement is like a garden - it has its fruits and nuts! But to say that charismatic worship (however you may define it) is all about me, may be going a bit too far. In fact, I know some traditionalists for whom that is the case. I don't think that they come to worship God, but rather come for the "experience" of traditional worship. I don't think one can drive too hard a wedge between the two, but it does exist.

I go back to what I said before - you have to see the movement as it has developed and matured over time. It is fundamentally about actualizing the charisms of the lay apostolate, and as it has grown, the movement has recognized manifestations of the charisms in far less dramatic (but no less powerful) forms...particularly in the context of liturgy and traditional forms of worship.

As to faith's relationship with reason, is there not a dimension of faith that is supra-rational? Read about some of the ecstatic experiences of the saints (canonized or not). Now, are these types of experiences to be sought? The fathers say no, especially since they open us up to demonic influence and pride. But when they happen, andthey are authentic, it can be quite powerful.

As someone who grew up in the renewal and knows its good side and bad side first hand, my advice is to defer to the discernment of the church on this matter. And the church has given its approval to the movement (not necessarily to every single aspect of its expression).

Probably the best book on the subject right now is Archbishop Paul J. Cordes's "Call to Holiness".

Call to Holiness: reflections on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal [amazon.com]

Gordo

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Originally posted by ebed melech:
Interesting points. I would only say that many of these gifts were demonstrated by saints within the Eastern and Western traditions. As extraordinary charisms of the Holy Spirit, they are not necessarily signs of personal holiness (remember the prophecy of Balaam's Ass?...not to be confused with Tim Lahaye's prophetic/pathetic "My Left Behind" series. biggrin ).

But I digress...

Prophecy is one of those interesting charisms. I don't think in its biblical sense it is intended exclusively as a prediction of the future. Rather, it is the ability to interpret the "signs of the times" according to the divine economia. (Sometimes that involves predicting the future, but not always.)
Yes and by definintion saints are few and far between.

I do not stand for a total stopping of the Gifts but I do not believe that they are as prevalent today as they were in the very early Church.

There are not saints at every Charismatic meeting yet it seems like very gift is present and they seem to be present in abundance.

Quote

I'm still not sure about the theological ground for "speaking in tongues" in the way that it is practiced in most Charismatic prayer groups. (Although, interestingly enough, there is a "feel" much like the Greek chanted "issan" (sp?) with layers of harmony when it is practiced. Like you, I favor a reading of the gift of tongues as in languages that are foreign to the speaker. There are examples of this in many missionary accounts, even in modern times.
Again, these are not being done at Charismatic meetings.

Quote

But the renewal is certainly more than that phenomenon. It has more to do with animating the laity.

BTW, I think you forgot healing and spiritual warfare, which are very much part of the movemet.
IMHO the movement is more about emotion and how one feels.

I did not forget healing. I put healing in the same class as the other Gifts, healings do not occur on demand nor in abundance.

As for Spiritual Warfare, I do not count that as a gift.

I think some Charismatics put too much of an emphasis on Spiritual Warfare. That is a delicate subject and one must know some psychology to handle it effectively in others.

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Originally posted by ebed melech:
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
[b] Perhaps I am not saying this well, but it seems to me that charismatic worship fits our overwrought and touchy-feely culture - it's based on "me" and what I feel and experience.
It seems to me that that is painting with a pretty broad brush. Sure enough, the movement is like a garden - it has its fruits and nuts! [/b]
But doesn't the Lord say.

Matthew 7:15-23
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are (M)ravenous wolves.
16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So if a tree is bearing both good fruit and bad nuts then there is something wrong with the tree.

And then there is this from 2 Timothy 4.

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

I believe that many in the Charismatic movement done so.

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Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
I believe that many in the Charismatic movement done so.
Perhaps...perhaps not. Again, I'm not sure what exposure you have had to the "charismatic movement". My sense is - not much. Perhaps you are satisfied dealing with clich�s and caricatures, as opposed to real people. The movement has had its problems and growing pains, no doubt. I experienced some of those first hand, while growing up and in the university. And ecclesiaistical approbation for a movement is not neccessarily the same as a blanket endorsement, as we have seen with the Neocatechumenate.

But by and large, the movement itself has been approved and blessed by the church. I would suggest reading Cordes's work before taking too hard a line on the movement or its membership.

Gordo

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