www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Unity with Roman Church

If the Church is "one, holy, catholic and apostolic", are we not justified in claiming that the Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantine Church are not substantially different? Did not our Lord pray: "May they all be one, so that the world may believe" (Jn.17,21)?

Could our desire to emphasize how we are different from Roman Catholics prove to be a stumbling block to those who might eschew polemics in their Christian lives?

Moreover, could our desire to emphasize our distinctiveness signify a subtle shift away from Christ and towards ourselves?

How is Church unity incompatable with "different"? There is nothing wrong with "different".

The joy of Eastern Catholics, is that unity does not mean uniformity. We can be eastern, and orthodox, and one with Catholic Christians of the West.

the unworthy,
Elias

Dear David,

You are right!

Rome should simply return to the Apostolic traditions of Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy and put aside its historic, obstinate opinions (theologoumena)!

Alex

It would seem to me that Rome, then, needs dialogue, moreso, with its Eastern Riters than it does with the Orthodox, perhaps, a precondition of dialogue with the Orthodox...

With the new Pope, I was really hoping for some dialogue between East and West. However, there has been no meaningful dialogue. Pope Benedict has been a disappointment to me on this matter.

Dear jporthodox,

I think it may be too soon to tell with this issue.

The Pope has the more pressing matter of how to ensure "orthodox Catholicism" within the Latin Church.

I recently found out that there are Latin Catholic parishes that have ABOLISHED private confession altogether.

I didn't believe this at first, thinking it to be a religious joke or something . . .

A friend of mine, who is an Orthodox priest who teaches in a Catholic college, told me about how the Catholic teachers draw funny diagrams on the floor of their chapel . . .

I don't even want to go there. . .

The Pope has to reign in the Latin Catholics (especially those who tell their religion students to "pray to God the Mother" to the tunes of Hindu music).

Without that tightening of the dogmatic leash, Catholics will be embarassed when they compare themselves with Orthodox . . .

Alex

Alex- Either that is the cleverest play on words I have seen in a long while, or a very telling Freudian slip!
-Daniel

Alex,

I could not agree more! This Pope is definitely the man to help shepherd the hearts and minds of Latin Catholics back to their orthodox traditions. (I am currently reading his "Nature and Mission of theology" for grad school. As with anything by Ratzinger, it is simply marvellous!) Truly he is one of the great lights of Catholicism produced in the 20th century.

As far as David's initial point, I too have thought at times that the dangers of an excessive particularism should be avoided. Our Eastern heritage developed within the broader, apostolic, orthodox catholic tradition. At the same time, we should fully embrace our identity as Byzantines, which means that we need to clearly distinguish ourselves from the dominant Latin tradition to avoid the dangers of absorption or annihilation.

I tend to see the church in terms of its typological fulfillment as the New Israel. In Ancient Israel, the twelve tribes gathered around the tabernacle in the wilderness. Each tribal family remained distinct in its identity, while sharing in the one vocation of Israel to be God's holy people, partaking in the one sacrifice and offering worship to YHWH. In a similar way, the Catholic Church is made up of many "tribes" with distinct traditions, but all sharing in the one Holy Tradition of faith, the one New Covenant, and the one Sacrifice, albeit expressed in a unique theological "dialect". One cannot help but recognize Jesus' original intention to establish the twelve apostles as the new rulers of the "twelve tribes" in the New Israel He would establish.

To further this allegorical interpretation, it is interesting that one tribe, that of Levi (the tribe of Aaron and Moses) was selected to be the ruling priestly tribe over the other tribes, mostly due to the fact that they were the tribe of Moses, the mediator of God's holy covenant and YHWH's prophet. (Of course, YHWH's original intention was that all of the tribes were to exercise priesthood, but they were summarily "defrocked" by the killing of the 1st born sons after the Golden Calf incident. To me, this "fall" is where the allegorical interpretation ends.) One wonders if somehow the "Petrine tribe" based in Rome has been providentially chosen by God to rule over the other "apostolic tribes".

For instance, is it any wonder that the five sees of the Pentarchy make some claim to a Petrine connection? Peter's brief rule in Antioch, Mark, Peter's disciple, in Alexandria, Andrew, Peter's brother, in Constantinople, Jerusalem as the "Mother Church" where Peter is clearly the head of the apostolic college, and finally Rome, the "Apostolic See of Peter" and the location of his bold martyrdom shared with the other great apostle, Paul?

Just a few thoughts while we stir our coffee...

Gordo

I agree with this 100 % !!!

Thank you, Elias !


Alex, I agree that there is a lot of need in the Roman Catholic Church for returning to true Catholic teaching and practice. On the other hand, not everythintg in the last 40 years has been bad. And, I think that keeping diversity of rites while maintianing unity in essentials is a key to being Catholic. But, I agree with you and others: Pope Benedict the 16th is just the man to get the job done of cleaning house in the Roman Catholic Church without throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

-- John

I strongly disagree. There is the Eucharist. There is maintaining the fullness of Eucharistic unity by preserving communion with the bishop of Rome. There are lots of saints too --a great cloud of witnesses-- such as St. Padre Pio, Bl. Mother Teresa and the soon to be beatified John Paul the Great. And so on: there is much holiness in the Catholic Church, Roman as well as Eastern.



Not at this Forum, brother. I have seen other forums, which I will not name, where some of the participants showed a level of vituperative hate against the West in general and against the Catholic Church in particular that was both shocking in itself and shocking in that it was tolerated by others (including the management of those forums).

At this Forum, I have generally seen a high degree of respect, compassion and Christian love by both Westerners and Easterners regarding each other. Yes, sometimes people lose their tempers, etc.; but then, both the administrators and the participants put a stop to it. And, to their real credit, people here are humble enough to apologize when they have been out of line in their behavior.

Finally, I don't think the people at this Forum are trying to build up the East by tearing down the West. Instead, I think they are trying to appreciate and understand better the Eastern Christian heritage; and they tend to enjoy the Eastern heritage more than the Western heritage. That is not a "subtler underlying theme" of people tearing down the West; that is people simply preferring (or just exploring, or just enjoying) the Eastern heritage.


If that is what you come away with, I suggest two things.

First, take a break and then come back and simply listen to what people are talking about here, and how they talk, and the loving regard they show for each other.

Be well.

-- John

It would seem 99% of Orthodox belief and practice is seen by Rome as Truth yet moral equivalence is voiced with protestantism?! This is what "two lungs" means?! Indeed, the current papal model propounded of "two lungs" establishes dual primacies and ecclesiological equivalencies, yet Orthodoxy is deficient for lack of submission to papalism?! Not according to the chair...Such dissonance can only allude to a greater confusion...Rest assured, Orthodoxy is grounded in its maintenance of conciliar and Patristic Faith and ecclesiology. Presenting the Vincentian Canon for your consideration would be not an act of triumphalism but love in the hopes of a restored Chalice...

Glad that controversy ended quickly. It tooka couple of readings to understand what Bill was driving at.

Any comments on my use of allegorical interpretation vis-a-vis the structuure of the Church?

Agreement? Disagreement? Overall indifference?

I encountered a related concept in my reading of Ratzinger. He makes reference to the patristic understanding of symphonia, expressing the relationship between Old and New Testaments as well as the dynamic relations between the local and universal communion of ecclesia.

God bless,

Gordo

I strongly disagree. There is the Eucharist. There is maintaining the fullness of Eucharistic unity by preserving communion with the bishop of Rome. There are lots of saints too --a great cloud of witnesses-- such as St. Padre Pio, Bl. Mother Teresa and the soon to be beatified John Paul the Great. And so on: there is much holiness in the Catholic Church, Roman as well as Eastern.



Not at this Forum, brother. I have seen other forums, which I will not name, where some of the participants showed a level of vituperative hate against the West in general and against the Catholic Church...............


[QUOTE][qb]

To All,

If anyone is wondering what this is all about I made a post which I asked the moderator to delete and thankfully he did. To anyone who read it, I apologize.

John is definitely correct in what he said above. In all truth, I have been lurking at some of these other forums and not just reading attacks against the west but attacks against everyone. (Latin vs. Latin, Orthodox vs. Orthodox, Latin vs. Orthodox, Orthodox vs. Latin....etc.) This being the ONLY forum I belong to, I came here and started reading and regretfully decided to vent. My apologies to all. There isn't a forum out there that even comes close to the charity shown here by the users.

Now if we may get back to the subject at hand, Gordo deserves some input.

Again I'm Sorry, Bill

Bill, we are Christians, we forgive and forget.
You are correct about the nature of this forum. Occasionally things pop up, but 94.3254% of the time everyone here gets along.
And it is a very awesome board in the fact that many Priests, deacons, professionals, cantors, readers, acolytes, pew polishers, greeters, visit and add their knowledge. It wouldn't surprise me if Bishops even watched this message board.
I can name other forums, but none have the civility that is found here.

Wow, how did you come up with such a precise figure? :p
Some of us would say more like 83.924% of the time....
-Daniel