The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
samuelthesearcher, Hannah Walters, Harry Kevin, BadAppleGabe, Brian the Seeker
6,193 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (EastCatholic, 1 invisible), 516 guests, and 107 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,540
Posts417,759
Members6,193
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#107125 05/07/03 12:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
H
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
H Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
Pelagius.

The theologian, not the Pope.

Pelagius argued strongly for his ideas in Rome and elsewhere and seems to have had only one major or significant opponent in the marketplace of ideas and that person was Augustine. Today the name of Pelagius is like a dirty word in some circles. Catholics are always being accused of Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism. It is hard for me to refute that charge when I know so little about it myself and harder for me to know that these critics understand pelagianism themselves.

While Augustine was a very prolific writer and most of his work seems to have survived to this day, Pelagius is a bit more obscure to us. I think there may even be some confusion about what constitutes a Pelagian heresy. It seems to have been connected with the nature of original sin. I do not know this issue very well and I am sure there must be some very knowledgeable people here to help me out with this

Is it possible that Pelagius was misunderstood? Even if he erred by extension is it possible that his starting point was a variation of the doctrine of Theosis? Pelagius was a product of the Celtic Christian milieu and I think that his understanding was popular among them. I think that he found some support in the east. This was early in Christian theological development (fifth century?) and the followers of Pelagius did not separate into a rival/schismatic church (as sometimes happens with heresy) but folded back into the mainstream church structure.

So what went on then? Does anyone have any comments?

#107126 05/07/03 01:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Dear Michael,

Fr. Geoffrey Ready has quite the comprehensive article on Pelagius (or Morgan of Wales, both names meaning "seafarer") on his Orthodox site ( I don't remember the URL since he moved to Ireland, sorry!).

The debate on Pelagius is an ongoing one and the conflict with Augustine's ideas is similar to the conflict between St Augustine and St John Cassian.

Cassian lost that debate and his cult is limited to Marseilles only - but he is a full saint in Orthodoxy.

What is certain is that Pelagius and Pelagianism are two different things. Pelagianism is certainly a heresy but this is apart from what Pelagius said and taught.

Some have argued that Pelagius' views relate to Orthodox positions on Grace, Free Will and Original Sin.

When I was in university, there was a RC conference on Pelagius - and the participants were all in favour of "rehabilitating" his memory.

There are Celtic groups in the U.S. that venerate Pelagius as "St Morgan of Wales."

I'll see if I can look up that article.

Alex

#107127 05/07/03 03:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 441
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 441
I thought I might share this delighful tid-bit I came across:

Pelagius lived in Kardanoel,
And taught a doctrine there,
How whether you went to Heaven or Hell,
It was your own affair.
How, whether you found eternal joy
Or sank forever to burn,
It had nothing to do with the Church, my boy,
But was your own concern.

semi-chorus:
Oh, he didn't believe
In Adam and Eve,
He put no faith therein!
His doubts began
With the fall of man,
And he laughed at original sin!

chorus:
With my row-ti-ow, ti-oodly-ow,
He laughed at original sin!

Whereat the Bishop of old Auxerre
(Germanus was his name),
He tore great handfuls out of his hair,
And he called Pelagius Shame:
And then with his stout episcopal staff
So thoroughly thwacked and banged
The heretics all, both short and tall,
They rather had been hanged.

semi-chorus:
Oh, he thwacked then hard, and he banged them long,
Upon each and all occasions,
Till they bellowed in chorus, loud and strong,
Their orthodox persuasions!

chorus:
With my row-ti-tow, ti-oodly-ow,
Their orthodox persua-a-a-sions!

Now the Faith is old and the Devil is bold,
Exceedingly bold indeed;
And the masses of doubt that are floating about
Would smother a mortal creed.
But we that sit in a sturdy youth,
And still can drink strong ale,
Oh � let us put it away to infallible truth,
Which always shall prevail!

semi-chorus:
And thank the Lord
For the temporal sword,
And for howling heretics too;
And whatever good things
Our Christendom brings,
But especially barley brew!

chorus:
With my row-ti-tow, ti-oodly-ow,
Especially barley brew!

biggrin

#107128 05/07/03 03:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Dear Anton,

The song is nice, but has no real bearing to reality.

St Meletius of Antioch, it is said, is the innocent originator of Arianism and there are other examples of this sort.

Alex

#107129 05/07/03 03:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 441
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 441
Well I guess if anyone can lower the tone of the thread, it might as well be me.....

Still, it was a pretty little ditty, along with the little song about the Mouse named Keith...but I can't say it! wink

Anton

#107130 05/07/03 04:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
H
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
H Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
I liked the ditty, especially that ti-oodly-ow business!

#107131 05/07/03 04:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
H
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
H Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
Is it possible the Cassian and Pelagius got thwacked and banged by the same steam roller?

#107132 05/07/03 04:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Dear Michael,

Yes, by the same (Augus)tine roller . . . wink

Alex

#107133 05/07/03 04:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
H
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
Orthodox Catholic Toddler
Member
H Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,904
If Pelagius had been a monk on Sinai in that time period would his ideas been acceptable? Would we even have icons to Saint Pelagius today?

Sorry, loaded question. No one has to answer that.

#107134 05/07/03 04:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405
Likes: 38
Dear Michael,

Well, I don't think we would have heard from Pelagius if he were on Mt Sinai.

His views, if expressed in that context, would not have caused much comment.

And let's also remember that not only St John Cassian opposed Augustine at the time - so did the bishops of southern Gaul.

Alex

#107135 05/09/03 10:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 156
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 156
My Dear Alex,

Quote
The song is nice, but has no real bearing to reality.
Your error, my dear sir, is thinking Celts actually CARE if their songs have a basis in reality.

smile

Great song Anton, I'll be singing it all day smile

#107136 05/09/03 10:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 441
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 441
I try my best, my Irish friend! Ohh....I remember old Molly Malone in Dublin that day, with her juicy oranges...

Anton wink


Moderated by  Irish Melkite 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0