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Dec 29th, 2019
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Dear Brother Don, You are too kind . . . As for the kisses, they are in honour of the Holy Trinity, as I understand. We Ukies do everything three times. And, yes, my honeymoon was simply superb!  Alex
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Rum,
Well, Orthodox are not united in sharing what you believe, Big Guy!
And who ever capped the Councils at 7? You mean all this talk among the Orthodox about an 8th council and preparations etc. is all heretical?
And John Meyendorff's contention that a union Council between East and West could take place and declare an 8th Council, the Council that restored ST Photios way back when, while declaring itself a 9th Council? Was Meyendorff another heretic too? You'd go to Russia just so you can participate in an outdoor Meyendorff book-burning "Partia?"
Eastern Orthodox theologians are open to the Oriental Orthodox Churches' concerns. Sorry that you are not.
But "Black and White" really only works in photography.
When I referred to the "pope in you," I actually was thinking more in terms of the medieval Popes as the Administrator said as well.
I would suggest that you are not as "Orthodox" as you think you are. There is still much that bespeaks of the medieval papacy in you, Convert Boy.
And you don't become Orthodox just by joining a parish, saying the Creed without the Filioque, and changing rosary beads for a prayer rope.
Right now, the only we get out of you is a papalism in reverse.
Alex I would like to know how you became God?! Only a heretic would make a blanket statement saying that I am not Orthodox and do not share the Orthodox faith with other Orthodox. You should consider changing your name to Heretical Catholic. That is my honest perception of you at this time. I should not be engaging heretics in dialogues as this because this treatment is expected. As for an Eighth Ecumenical Council, we have no option but to wait for Rome to return to Orthodoxy. I never said one is not needed. It makes no sense to repeat Florence all over again. The West must be united in one Orthodox Faith. End of story Big Guy. I look forward to your conversion from Heretical Catholic to truly Orthodox Catholic.
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In the Name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. One God, Amen.
Dear Administrator, Alex and Mor Ephrem.
You all made valuable contributions which are always a pleasure to read. Dogmatic and chauvinistic comments by converts, reverts and retroverts do tend to make me feel that unity is next to impossible. But then reading the likes of you all get my spirits going again. Mor Ephrem you in particular should be applauded. As Pope Shenouda so frequently reminds the Egyptians of the words of Saint Paul. If there is one spiritual gift to actually ask God for you should ask for the gift of humility. I don't know if you actually prayed for it but you definitely received it. I can not honestly say that if I had to endure some of the attacks on Oriental Orthodoxy that I have seen you endure if I would at all keep my Christian sensibilities. More power to you bro.
Sometimes I feel that in all this philosophical bickering we are losing touch with reality and the true mission of Apostolic, Ancient and Original Christianity (my way of saying Orthodox [both EO and OO] and Catholic [Both Eastern and Western]). I part time with an organization that helps to get troubled youth back on track. I don't care how far I go in life I don't ever plan to leave this type of work (even if it is on a volunteer basis). Recently I have become very disturbed at seeing the amount of these youth, who come from various backgrounds, get all caught up in the Pentecostal movement. We have Armenians, Latinos, Philippine youths and others from a variety of Catholic and Orthodox backgrounds. The only Churches that are extending a hand and outreaching to them is the Pentecostals. These kids usually end up converting and developing a sort of self-hatred for their own religious background. Needless to say it usually causes a rift in their family. As an Orthodox, I never thought that I would ever be in a position of telling a Latino Catholic why he should remain a Catholic and not become a Pentecostal. I have noticed that at the heart of the matter, what I tell Catholics is nothing different than I would tell an Ethiopian Orthodox who is also contemplating conversion. That is where I see the unity lying.
I wish we were there for these kids who have no sense of who they are or why they do what they do as Orthodox/Catholics. But no, we rather sit here and proclaim that everyone else has to accept "our' Ecumenical council and that there are no "ifs ands or buts about it' and calling people heretics. This leaves our youth wide open for the holy rollers. Come on, we owe it to the generation under us to get our acts together.
Alex, what is this about Ukies kissing on the cheek?
God Be with You all.
Aklie Semaet
Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
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Dear Rum, Perhaps I am a heretic. I know I'm not God. And I leave it to God to judge me on my sincerity. I think even a sincere heretic can reach Heaven, by God. I hope I'm not judging you. God will have His Hands full in doing that, I'm sure I didn't mean to upset you. Perhaps I did, and for that I'm sorry. I'm in a better mood than I was this morning. I pulled a muscle in my right arm and am in a bit of pain. But I am learning to live with it. As I hope you can with me here. Alex
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Originally posted by Maximus:
Rum,
Do you ever get the feeling that the position you take is kind of like being stuck in the trenches with dried bones after the war is long gone?
Some how I get the feeling the Orthodox Church isn't going to make much of a dent in the world without those seperated from her both on the side with communion to Rome and on the Oriental Orthodox side.
My sympathies aside for the Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox difficulties going on in Russia, but if Roman Catholicism is the biggest problem the Russian Church has to deal with in Russia - God help that Church because it in always is in a state of degration far worst then the oft quoted "AmChurch". For Roman Catholicism not even native to the states and can hold it's own in America.
I say this with no amount of pride in me or ties to Roman Catholicism - but the entire Eastern Orthodox world could blow away into dust and the world will still becken to the moral and political leadership of the Vatican. Catholicism will still grow in Africa and Asia and still make a presence in America. And Italy and Malta will still be folowing the Bishop of Rome not of Moscow.
Justin Thank you Pope Justin for your "honest" assessment of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Blown away into dust? You easily forget that you will return to just that---dust. Your post is nothing but dust and has no impact upon Orthodoxy.
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Dear Aklie, Selam! Yes, Rum Orthodox is a good fellow and, as you can see, I've really gotten him mad over my papal comments to him. I still do think he is papalistic in his black and white assertions, but I don't want to be called "Heretic" any more than absolutely necessary . . . (Do I get to wear that paper mitre with the devils on it, like John Hus? ) As for a change to my screen name to "Heretical Catholic," that is up to the Administrator . I've never really understood why some EO's lose it over the seven councils thing. The Oriental Orthodox are truly Orthodox and Catholic and Apostolic in every which way. The Fourth Council got into trouble over terminology, but how bad can that be today when everyone acknowledges St Cyril of Alexandria and his theology and we know that the Oriental Orthodox have always and ONLY defended Cyrillian positions on the Nature of Christ? The later Councils dealt with issues that were strictly internal to the Roman/Byzantine Church and even the 7th Council had nothing to do with the Roman Church at all, but with the iconoclasm issue within the Byzantine Church! By the way, thank you for your posts on Ethiopian practices! Getting up at night for prayer is hard, but rewarding! Alex the Heretic
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Dear Rum,
How come Maximus gets to be Pope and I'm a lowly heretic?
His mitre is better than mine!
At least you recognize that the Orthodox acknowledged the Popes at one time . . .
I'd give you a blessing, but do heretical ones count?
Alex
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I did not think blessings could be heretical?! It's amazing what I hear and see in these forums. Fine, I will accept it any way you like. May He who rose from the dead grant you life everlasting.
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Dear Rum,
Actually, the Orthodox Church expressly forbids anyone accepting formal blessings from heretics.
Just thought I would check with you before I gave you one. Here goes:
The Lord bless you and keep you!
The Lord make His Face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you!
The Lord lift up His Countenance upon you and grant you peace!
Alex
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Rum,
You're right, blessings can never be heretical, because they all come from God! ...the only source of blessings and the giver of every good gift!
May God bless us all!
Elias
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Dear Aklie, I've been wondering for a while where you were...  You overestimate me. I am not humble at all. I've prayed for humility, but I am standing in the way of God giving it to me, I guess. Would that I would get smart and get out of the way. It is not humility, really, just a lot of patience. But thanks for your support and most of all for your prayers.
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WOW!!!
What a FABULOUS THREAD!! There is wealth of discussion and ideas here which will be very helpful to me as a convert. As soon as I have finished this post I am going to hit the "print" button so that I have a paper copy to read, study, and mark with my hi-liters.
THANKS to one and all for the great thread and the answers, even the arguements!!!
God bless all here.
Brother Ed
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OK, setting aside the term "ecumenical" in regars to the last 14 councils of the Latin church...
Q1: What exactly makes a general council dogmatically binding on the entire Catholic church with respect to articles of faith (not discipline)?
Q2: Whether Eastern Catholics prefer to use the exact phrasing or not (I don't know), do they believe the dogmatic teaching of Vatican I on the infallibility of the Pope?
Q3: How can Eastern Catholics say they don't accept original sin when the term is used by one of the popes in the ex-cathedra statement on the Immaculate Conception?
I'm a convert from RC to Orthodoxy and am not here to "argue" these points. I've asked pointed questions because I'm trying to understand how Eastern Catholics see these things - with a bent towards knowing the "official" answers if there are any to be had.
A very good thread, BTW!!
Eric
"Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose
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Mor Ephrem,
I am going to give this another stab on why the Oriental should accept the 4th-7th Ecumenical Councils.
First, we all know their was a communication problem, a problem of semantics(Greek vs Semitic). It's amazing how we can be united within the first three ecumenical councils! What is interesting is that we would not need ecumenical councils since everything in them is what we have always affirmed from the beginning. However, the Devil has his ways of sowing divisions. The 4th-7th Ecumenical Councils are reiterated positions that clarify our Orthodox positions from the beginning. We did not add or take away from the substance of our one & united Faith. To say that the 4th & 7th Ecumenical Council are irrelevant or not binding is the equivalency of shooting yourself in the foot. I would dare say that sooner or later the Oriental Churches would have had to deal with the very same issues that the Byzantines had to go through. In fact, I believe they had similiar issues & circumstances but they were not etched out in stone like our 4th-7th Ecumenical Councils. It serves you no good to play charades with me nor am I playing them with you.
I would like to know from you and other Orientals: in accordance of the teachings of the 4th-7th Ecumenical Councils is what we teach not always have been taught from the beginning of our united Churches? For example, the iconoclasm heresy reigned for centuries and continues to flourish in the Protestant world if not moreso in the Islamic world. Do you think the 7th Ecumenical Council is not true for you and for us in the face of this dangerous world? If you know that the basis of iconography is based upon the Incarnation how can the 7th Ecumenical Council be less in worth in comparison to the first three ecumenical councils? I hope I have provided an adequate response to your inquiry.
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Eric, This is just a brief response since it's late. Q1: For matters of faith the teachings of a council become binding on the entire Catholic Church when the pope blesses these teachings and they are received by the Church. Keep in mind that even if a teaching is proclaimed this does not mean that it replaces an equivalent teaching from a different Catholic tradition (see my earlier post on the ruling of the Council of the Chefs of Rome on the recipe for spaghetti for a more detailed explanation). Q2: Eastern Catholics accept the teaching of Vatican I on the infallibility of the pope as binding while at the same time stating that it needs further clarification (which is why we welcome the Holy Father's request of the Orthodox to help him redefine the papal role for a reunited Church in the Third Millennium). Q3: Eastern Catholics accept the Western definition of original sin as a valid and correct (and hence, the Immaculate Conception) while at the same time maintaining the traditional Eastern understanding of original sin and building a theology of the Immaculate Conception based upon our definition of original sin. [Again, see my earlier post on spaghetti on page 1 (be advised that it will make you hungry!  ). Also note that the Orthodox objections to the IC are mostly that it was not necessary, not that it was improper. Finally, note that while one must accept these teachings as true and correct one need not also consider them good theology.] Admin
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