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I went to a Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russian this Sunday. I kind of was weirded out after Liturgy when one of the members was telling me they do not recognize the Patriarch of Constantinople because he is a Mason. Any way this conversation kind of digressed into an Anti-Uniate one that I was desperately trying to avoid.

So, what�s the deal with this church? Why are they "Outside Russia". Also, they kept talking about the Patriarch of Russia being a KGB agent etc... Anyway, I was weirded out.

I just wanted to go to a Divine Liturgy!

God Bless!

Glad you went to a Liturgy? Besides your discussion, what did you think of it?


"Also, they kept talking about the Patriarch of Russia being a KGB agent etc..."

This is a known and sad fact. I believe he was recruited as a preist but I could be mistaken, but he def. was a KGB agent. i do not mean to bash people under MP jurisdiction, I would not want to entrust my spiritual care under a former KGB agent. (I prefer a Studite monk that can pass for Santa Claus, I think the ukies here get that onehehe )

But anyways I have always had pleasant expierences with some ROCOR clergy and faithful. I hope it was the same for you.

-ukrainiancatholic

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear aRomanCatholic@work:

Check out the ROCOR website for more information: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/index.html

In a nutshell, the Russian Orthodox Church established itself outside of Russia after the Revolution. When Metropolitan Sergius (?) signed an oath of allegiance to the government of the USSR, this brought the equivalent of an anathema on the Russian Orthodox Church in the USSR by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of the USSR.
This split between the Russian Orthodox Church outside and inside the USSR continues to this day.

In North America, there was a movement within the Russian Orthodox Church to heal this schism. I believe in the late 1960s, part of the Russian Orthodox Church recognized the legitimacy of the Patriarch of Moscow. Part didn't. The Part that didn't remain the ROCOR. The part that did, that's the OCA. Moscow gave the OCA it's autocephaly in 1971(?).

ROCOR is in active communion with the Greek and Romanian Old Calendar churches. I know there is at least one Old Believer community (in Erie, PA) that is part of the ROCOR diocese. I don't know if overseas Old Believer communities have ties with ROCOR.

ROCOR has communities in Europe, South America, Australia and I believe some parishes in Russia. They are not a member of SCOBA.

There have been discussions between ROCOR and the Patriarch of Moscow. I believe ROCOR wants Patriarch Alexei to renounce the departed Sergei's oath to the government.

Regarding Patriarch Alexei as a KGB employee (I'm not sure if he was on the pension plan).... The Dublin Times popularized the story a number of years ago. It is my understanding that KGB files left over in Estonia fingered him as "Agent Drozdy."

When I visited the KGB Museum in Vilnius, they had sacks of shredded paper. Before the KGB departed, they managed to shred many documents. However, time ran out and they were not able to shred everything. I believe that was the case with the KGB files left over in Estonia.

Everyone, please correct me if provided faulty information. I am not a member of the OCA or ROCOR.

God bless,
Christopher
(Armenian Catholic)

Dear Friends,

The whole issue of the Moscow Patriarch's alleged membership in the KGB is a tiresome one.

The Kyivan Patriarch Filaret was also allegedly a member as were many other bishops. The Masonic issue is another tiresome charge.

At the height of the Ukrainian Patriarchal movement, a pamphlet was circulated about the Masons in the Vatican, including Jan Cardinal Villot who, after the death of Pope Paul VI, was the chief administrator of the entire Catholic Church!

This pamphlet was in Ukrainian, ostensibly designed to discredit the Vatican that was resisting the recognition of a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate.

The thing is, many American RC priests called in to the people who published this pamphlet asking for an English translation so they could distribute them to their parishes . . .

Some of ROCOR's bishops also had backgrounds that were allegedly not pure as the driven snow. So what is achieved by all this mud-slinging at hierarchs? "May the bishop who is without sin cast the first stone!"

Also, +Ray, you really had no business attending liturgy at a ROCOR church.

Apart from the issue of their sacramental validity, which is no problem for me, but is for others, they are quite anti-Catholic, in addition to being anti-mostOrthodox. For them, the "Uniates" are in another category altogether - the lowest kind.

That they are very sincere in their Orthodoxy is a fact. Our parish priest used to always extol ROCORites and even had two Ukrainian ROCORites do the iconography for our entire Church.

(I wonder what was going through their minds when they had to write an icon of ST Josaphat and of Met. Andrew Sheptytsky?).

I don't know how mainstream Orthodox jurisdictions view ROCOR, but it would be much easier for me as an Eastern Catholic to "return to Orthodoxy" (Orthoman is showing his impact on me, you know), than it would for a ROCORite to rejoin mainstream Orthodoxy in at least two jurisdictions that I am familiar with.

So better stay away next time. Unless you have an (Orthodoxyor)Death wish . . .

Alex

Alex,

I thought you went somewhere?

As a matter of FACT, the MP was controlled by the Russian government and while it cannot be proven the EP is a mason, he certainly acts as much so proof is in the pudding.

I am anti allot of things.

ROCOR can't be that anti-Uniate, because a Greek-Catholic colleague of mine (and frequent poster here) and I sing in a choir of theirs at a parish that will remain annonymous. A few people know that we are Greek-Catholic and they have no problem with this. However, if ever asked if I were Orthodox, I was advised to say I am Ukrainian and try to change the subject.

Also, the ROCOR website has been recently updated, and it looks good.

Daniil

Orthodox Catholic,

Also, +Ray, you really had no business attending liturgy at a ROCOR church.

I can do whatever I want! For your information it was some stupid lay person that said all of this to me!

Dear Alex,

Don't mind me. If asked if I'm Roman Catholic, I give the same answer that I give when asked if I'm
Orthodox. I say, "No, I'm worse than that!"

You know, Metropolitan Andrew's father thought his son was lowering himself upon entering the Priesthood in the "peasant", aka "Uniate", aka "Greek" Church.

But, of course, HE was raising us all up. Sometimes, we spend much too much time knocking ourselves.

As far as no business attending Divine Liturgy, I believe in "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" no matter how many hierarchs throw rocks at each other!!!

The more Liturgy, the better!!!!


John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

CIX!

Patriarch Alex!

I go to a ROCOR parish often - St Edward's Monastery in Brookwood, Surry! Where's the problem? I get called "the holy heretic" in jest by Fr Alexis there

Just my two cents,

Edward

Dear +Ray,

If you are a Catholic, you cannot do whatever you want.

You are a servant of Christ within the 2,000 year tradition of His Church.

Attending Orthodox Churches is one thing, but attending one known for its anti-Eastern Catholic and anti-Catholic views period, is quite another.

Ask your Catholic priest and confessor about this.

As for doing what you want in general, yes, we are still living in a democracy.

Alex

Dear John and Patriarch Edward and Daniil,

My only point is that we shouldn't be worshipping at a place that is quite antagonistic to our religious identity as Catholics or "Uniates" or "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite" or etc.

I have myself gone through what +Ray has, I have confessed the situation and my priest instructed me to stay away in future.

What spiritual purpose does it serve to even expose oneself to the possibility of having one's religious views attacked?

Don't we get enough of that here?

I do know a ROCOR priest who actually likes me .

When I attended a service at his Church, I reverently stayed at the back and he came out to incense me - perhaps he wanted to "smoke" me out.

Daniil, the fact that you are even afraid of stating your religious identity in that situation speaks volumes.

We can be as liberal and "ecumenical" as we want. If we wish to attend an Orthodox liturgy, the OCA is quite welcoming.

I also don't know what the status of the ROCOR is with the Catholic Church. A number of Orthodox Churches in Canada treat the ROCOR as outside the Church.

And yes we can do what we want. I just don't like it when we pretend there is little difference between Catholics and Orthodox - the Orthodox would beg to differ.

And if we wish to become Orthodox, again, it's a free country.

But this group especially has no respect for us and considers us heretics and schismatics from the Orthodox Church at best.

The danger for us in "hanging out" with them is to begin to see ourselves from their perspective.

And that constitutes a danger to our faith that we should avoid as Catholics.

If what I have said here is at variance with accepted Catholic moral teaching, and if I can be shown this, I will withdraw it.

Alex

[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Alex I, (Pope or Patriarch doesn't matter):

You are absolutely right!

AmdG

Hey you see?

I was right when I brought here the "massonry" topic.

Dear aRomanCatholic@work,

Orthodoxy is not tolerant of heterodoxy, but Orthodox Christians are in general tolerant of people of other faiths. Of course you will always find intolerance in people whatever they believe. I am sorry you had a bad experience at the ROCOR parish. Yet ROCOR has an amazing spiritual legacy in its hierarchs such as Met Antony (Khrapovitsky), Met Philaret, Bishop Leonty, Savva, Archbishop Averky and of course St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. This church, while not in communion with the modernist Orthodox churches, has nevertheless grace (in the Orthodoxy understanding of grace), since its adhers to Holy Tradition and has valid apostolic succession. Its validity is not based on universal consensus, church politics or jurisdictionalism. While ROCOR is not 'official', it is canonical. There are many Orthodox Churches that are official but barely 'canonical' in that they have abandoned many of the canons of the church and embrace the pan heresy of ecumenism and in some cases interfaith syncretism. As a Roman Catholic you should visit ROCOR parishes because there you will find amidst the bigotry and phyletism, the power (dynamis)of the Holy Spirit working in the hearts of the humble members of the parish. My attraction to ROCOR was due to its spirituality and loyalty to Holy Tradition. That not all of its members are traditional and that it can be very xenophobic at times, does not, in my opinion, dimish its witness to holiness in the Christian life. While not entirely being accepted by them and indeed being subjected to some very unpleasant experiences, I still thank God for the experience and for the opportunity to have some of my corners smoothed! I was blessed to visit Bishop Eutichy (ROCOR rep) in Ishim, Siberia in 1997. Here is an ascetic bishop, who not only does not have a room in which to sleep, but doesn't even have a bed. I was a little scandalized when I saw the state of his hands when serving but quickly discovered that he was helping to build the cathedral with his own hands. Months of working with cement had stained his hands. When it came for time to sleep, the bishop slept on the floor while I slept in the bed - on orders of the bishop. Where there is humility there is grace.

Yours in Christ,

Fr Serafim

Bless Father,

I do not wish to be a pain but I have a question about something you said;

This church (ROCOR) , while not in communion with the modernist Orthodox churches, has nevertheless grace (in the Orthodoxy understanding of grace), since its adhers to Holy Tradition and has valid apostolic succession.

I thought that the Orthodox view of grace is this, "we can not tell where grace is except for within our own Church".

That is that outside of the Orthodox Church (and those in communion with them which ROCOR is not) they do not comment as to the validity of the mysteries or grace.

Now I am getting confused.

David