www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are we an impediment to reunion?

Alex,
They are much harder on clerics! Believe me.
I had a similar thing happen, 2 Bishops from a very rigid jurisdiction, we wont mention which one, thought I was Orthodox. When they found out that I was a Latin priest, I got a lecture on the evils of Ecumenism.

Stephanos I
Viva il Papa2

Hi Alex,
Oh, I understand all that. I was trying to give what might be a straightforward explanation of the difficulties, which you probably know better than I.

And yes, in a perfect world we would like to all be in communion with each and every Patriarch, most especially the Pope of Rome. I pray for the day.

Basically, the problem is not what the Byzantine Catholics teach...

Your brother and friend,
[Linked Image]
Michael, that sinner

Oh I quite understand. And cheers on the good results!

Well now, I would hope you were not lying, period.

But seriously, I too would invite anyone else to provide references to Orthodox telling Rome to "give the Eastern Catholic Churches full autonomy to 'be who they are'".

In any event, you've at least answered the first part of my question -- i.e. you were in fact being serious.

My point?

I'm afraid you (or someone, anyways) will need to spell that out for me, b/c I'm just not following your logic here. (Sorry if I seem a little slow.)

I have to run in a few minutes, but I'll think about it all some more, and post again when I can.

God bless,
Peter.

This East/West problem sounds to me like a divorced couple who fight all the time and use their children as leverage against each other.

My mother-in-law !#@!@#!$%#$^& HATES my father-in-law. During their marriage and the divorce they fought, fought, fought. To this day they dispise each other so much that they can't even be in the same house together. Literally!!!

Not in the same house!!!

It seems that the two sides are the parents and we're the children being used as leverage!

Dear Dr. Eric,

So now you know how we Eastern Catholics feel like . . .

"Roche," how interesting - any possible relation to Bl. Alan de la Roche, the apostle of the Rosary (although I'm informed that the title "Blessed" is an honorific only and that he has not yet been officially beatified)?

Alex

Dr. Alex,
I've wondered that myself. What's your new Icon?

Hesychios,
What's yours?

I think brother Michael(Hesychios) has a Icon rotary index of some sort ...and I'm surprised by Alex changing...he has used only 2 previously to my limited and humble knowledge...there must be something blowing in the wind up north in Toronto...eh, don't cha know.

james

Dear Dr. Eric,

This will be brief as I have to go and make dinner . . .

The icon is "Unexpected Joy" declared miraculous by the Eastern Orthodox Church following an investigation by St Dmitri Tuptalo, an ethnic Ukrainian Kozak saint.

It depicts the story of a thief who used to say a "Hail Mary" before the icon when he left for his night's work . . .

Once, however, as he recited his "Hail Mary," the Child Jesus raised His Hands that began to bleed as did His Side.

Then the Mother of God pointed to Him and said to the thief, "Do you see how you are hurting My Child with your sins? Is this how you praise me?"

He converted and the icon was depicted that way and became miraculous.

Chow!

Alex

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

I think I would just lay down and die after that!!!

Did the theif become a saint as well?

Alex,

I meant to ask about your avatar, but your story was great. By chance, do you remember the last 16 hail Marys in that series of 63 symbolize for the Recusants(I counted up your list to 47 until you ended with etc.)

Cheers,

Cyril

I was very interested to read the story about Alex's icon, if that happened to me I'm afraid my heart might stop right then and there!

My icon is of the Publican and the Pharisee. I am trying to follow the calendar of Sundays leading up to Great Lent. Last week I used an icon of Zacchaeus in the tree. The OCA has a later Easter this year than the BC, the weeks will not correspond to yours.

+T+
Michael

Next Week?
[Linked Image]

Michael,
Very cool.

Dear Alex,

Well, after giving some more thought to the above statement and everything else, I feel that I may have interpreted your original statement, to wit

a bit too literally (especially the words "always" and "full autonomy") and/or simplistically. Hence the disagreement between you and me might not be as great as I thought it was.

I do believe there are, and have always been, a few Orthodox who favor the ECs getting more autonomy. For me, this disagreement within Orthodoxy reinforces my belief that the EC situation is extremely complicated -- filled with double-binds and double-edged swords (as it were) -- and that we should always beware of automatically going for what seems to be the obvious/easy solution. (As well as keeping in mind that your idea of the "obvious solution" might be entirely different from mine.)

Also, lest we might make the mistake of thinking the Orthodox to be more divided than they actually are, I think it's helpful to keep in mind that the intra-Orthodox disagreement which we are considering is actually a disagreement over choosing the lesser of two evils. I mean, clearly there is a consensus among Orthodox that it would be better if the Union of Brest (et al) had never occurred and if the ECs still belonged to there respective mother churches. But they (the Orthodox) are split (somewhat) over the question: "Given that the Eastern Catholic Churches are separated from the their mother churches -- and hence not subject to the authority of those mother churches -- is it better that they be subject to papal authority (and to what extent) or that they be autonomous?"

That's my $0.02.
God bless,
Peter.

Dear Peter,

Yes, I think the Orthodox want EC's to be more autonomous so as to make the temptation to rejoin their Mother Orthodox Churches ever more emphatic!

It's kind of like what Gorbachev told the constituent republics of the former USSR - "You can leave if you want to" and then everyone got up and went for the door . . .

Alex

Dear Dr. Eric,

As far as I know, the thief did not become a saint in terms of being formally canonized.

But his image has remained on the icon . . .

Something similar occurred with the Athonite miraculous icon of "Portaitissa" or "Our Lady of the Gate."

A Saracen attacking the monastery on the peninsula saw the icon and lashed at it twice with his sword.

From the two visible marks on the face of the Theotokos there came forth blood . . . the man cried and converted right there on the spot.

He became an Athonite monk but when they asked him what his name was, he said, "Just call me 'Barbarian' for only a barbarian could do what I did to the Holy Icon of the Theotokos."

He was glorified a saint and is called, to this day, "St Barbarian."

Alex