Originally posted by DavidB:
"I help run a Bible study at our parish.
Last night we read and discussed Luke 15-18"
The Evangelical concept of the Rapture is based upon the belief that Christ will come again in a similar way that he came at the time of the crucifixion and resurrection (but this time in his human resurrected body) and that it will be a historical event (geo-political) and usher in a 1000 year rule of Christ and a new world government under himself. There are variations on an anti-Christ taking over all world governments and Protestants roots believe that the anti-Christ is the Pope.
It is all based upon fanciful interpretation of the book of Revelation and the mis-understanding of Matthew 24 � as applying to a �second� coming at some date in the future. Christ considered the time of his �coming� and his revelation as the messiah - as the moment of his death and resurrection. By that event he considered that his Father would reveal to all men of all times - that Jesus is the Son of God (of the nature of God).
The concept that Christ will come in a �second coming� at some future date in the time and space of world history was condemned by the Church (pre schism) as Millenarnism. I am sure you can look that up in the Catechism after you figure out the correct spelling.
The Orthodox Church expresses the coming of Christ after his resurrection as a personal experience, a spiritual event of mystical union before physical death or at the moment of judgment after death. That event is outside of time (the body) and a spiritual event (takes place in eternity).
A key here is that �time� is a human experience, a human measurement of events, and has no objective reality outside of a human experience. Time did not exist before a human was there to experience it because time is specifically a human experience. When your body dies - you are no longer bound to the time and space of your physical body - so for you - time ends. Time after all is a human measurement of events within time and space.
This 1000 year rein misinterpretation arose a few hundred years after the apostles but came to a head during the Byzantine empire (a union of Church and Empire)� when .. It became apparent that if true� Constantinople and the Byzantine empire would therefore also not be the true Church of Christ as it too, as a government, would pass away to be replaced by the true Church and Kingdom of God.
The count of 1000 years is a Jewish symbol of an indeterminate length, a �touch� as it were, of eternity.
The Catholic Church teaches that Christ, as the Son of Man (his human nature) came once - and was fully revealed - no further historical revelation of his Son of Man human nature (normal or resurrected) will step into human history again. There is no further or future revelation of his human nature. A personal and private revelation of his resurrected human nature may be possible on an individual bases - that is up to God. That is why the years of the world are split into those years counting up to the revelation of Christ (B.C. Before Christ) and those years looking back to the revelation of Christ (A.D. After the Dimension). There is a before and after - and nothing else.
Specifically as regarding this line �
34 �I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.�
Paul gives the meaning of this when he said that we are composed of two men, (the �old man� and the �new man�). We are composed of two natures. Body (sensate and physical nature) and spirit (intellect and mind). The Law of the body (habits, emotions, animal nature) and the Law of the mind (spirtual faculties of mind). We are not to be fixated to the ways and wants of body nature. Our spiritual nature may experience the risen Christ (enlightenment of the intellect) but our sensate nature will not (deadness of being servants of habits and emotions). One is taken (our spiritual nature) and the other is not (our physical nature).
The setting and context of the two scriptural quotes you make is this�
Beginning at 17:22 let us see what he is talking about.
There shall come a time (when they are under persecution) in which the apostles shall desire to see again Christ�s human and resurrected nature� to assure them and comfort them - but the time in human history allotted for his human nature to be present to us - in the whole of human history - is as quick and short as the time it takes lightening to flash across the night sky. Once they witness the crucifixion and resurrection - they must go on faith from then on. And so must we 2000 years later. One might estimate that from the �beginning� to the time of Christ it was some 4000 years? And after the time of Christ it has been 2000 years and counting. His 33 years and his especially his 3 days (crucifixion/resurrection) is as but a quick flash of lighting (the light being the time he was with us and the night being all the years of darkness without his human presence).
At the time of his crucifixion most everyone will be going about their daily lives (eating, drinking, etc..) it shall be a lone event and almost everyone will disbelieve in him but that dis-interested disbelief of the majority is to their own spiritual destruction (the end of the Jewish Temple cult). Since he is talking about his own crucifixion and resurrection he is talking about the Jews at that time - but we could also extend this to each of us going about all our other stuff and being surprised by death and judgment (like a thief - unseen and unheard - it comes into our house).
30: Even as no one believed Noah nor Lot - and they went about their daily stuff - so shall it be at the �hour� (moments) of his crucifixion and resurrection when God shall bring his wrath down upon all humanity (but upon his own son in our stead) �for upon him were laid all our sins�. The wrath that should fall upon us all at the very moment of sinning - fell upon Him instead so that we might have time to turn - accept Him - and then willingly accept our own crucifixion because of him.
Now notice.. First he said �in that day� (29) and next in 34 he says �in that night�� at once it is a time of �seeing� (daylight) and at the same time it is a time of night (darkness and blindness when one can not see). So this event (his crucifixion and resurrection) will be there for all to see - but those disinterested will be in darkness and blind.
Now - back up - and get the whole context of the discussion from 17:20 where it begins with the Pharisees (who expected a physical king and the restoration of Israel to the geo-political days of Solomon�s glory) asked him when and where the kingdom would be. Jesus answers �you will not observe it� and the Hebrew meaning (carried in the Greek translation) is that it is not a thing you see with the physical eye.
Now - skip to the end of the conversation � 36 .. And the Pharisees still don�t get it because they again ask for a physical location and time .. �Where?� - and Jesus answers - wherever the carcass is - you will see the vultures gathering above it. The natural image is one of seeing a gathering of vultures in the sky and knowing that beneath them is a dead body. This line is pregnant with meaning (as many of the Lords words are) but the main meaning is sufficient.
It means - all men die - the body will die. The kingdom of heaven is a �place� of no more death� so the Kingdom is not a physical thing of this sensate and physical world and will not be �here� or �there� as to location. I believe in another place his also reinterates this when he said about false messiahs �some will say he is over here.. Some will say he is over there� but don�t fall for it. Again, with this, Jesus does not even equate himself as the messiah until the moment he �comes� which is the moment of his death and resurrection after which his resurrected body (a human form) ascends to heaven and never again steps into history.
To say that the �second coming� is any thing other than a mystical union or a moment of personal experience after death - is to give it a �where and when�.. and an �over here� and �over there�. No man knows the �time� of it because it does not take place in �time�. It is that simple.
Good luck with your Evangelical friends - many Catholics and Orthodox believe in some future historical date (even if currently unknown) also.
Let me edit one thing before someone takes me up on it� I should have said it better.
Jesus knew he was the messiah - but he received that office at the moment of his crucifixion and resurrection (think of it as an anointing) he received the full office from the Creating Father. This is the doctrine of predestination� something which happens in the future (according to human time) has its effects on all that came before it and all that comes after it. Science looks for the big bang - well here it is - where the eternal divine and the time bound corporal - meet (the crucifixion and resurrection). This is the defining moment of creation. Christ�s life and the history of the world did not build -up- to the crucifixion so much as it preceded -from- the crucifixion and resurrection. Hard to understand because it is so simple.
And finally (too late Ray you already yakked too much) it is a wonder glimpse into His human nature - human in all ways - that when the Pharisees asked �when, where?� again!! regarding the physical location of the Kingdom of God - after Jesus so patiently explained that there is no physical location to it - the physical eye can not see it - and then they nodded as if they understood (so as not to look foolish to others standing there) and proceeded to ask again �Where?� - Jesus is frustrated turns the tables on them and gives the vulture line as if to say �Well.. If you have not understood then the sign you seek for a physical location and a date and time - will be like - the sign you latch onto will be as if you have spotted vultures in the sky and said �it is over there!� but once you get there you will find nothing but a dead body and you shall be just as dead (in spirit) as it!
OK. This is my opinion.
[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: -ray ]
