The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Sergiusz, zeroneet, Atomic Parakeet 1, Anna777, HeraclitusTheObscu
5,830 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 62 guests, and 25 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,141
Posts414,754
Members5,830
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 59
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 59
As a Roman Catholic, I have a strong appreciation for the Eastern Christian tradition. As I have close friends and family members who are Eastern Orthodox, I have a strong desire to see our churches reunited as we were in the beginning. I know many here on this Forum share the same desire.

I have frequently read, in Orthodox sources, that the existence of the "Uniats" presents a serious obstacle to that unity which we all desire and for which the Lord prayed. I know the history between Eastern Catholics and their Eastern Orthodox brothers is a complicated one. Yet I must wonder, in the interests of furthering unity, if it would not be better for our Eastern Catholics to fully reunite with the Orthodox.

I realize that EC's greatly value their unity with the entire Catholic Church throughout the world, and as a Roman Catholic I too value their contribution to the "catholicity" of our Church. But if the Eastern Catholic Churches, here and throughout the world (especially in Eastern Europe) were to enter into full communion with the Orthodox churches, would that not help to further unity? Would it not remove an obstacle to our greater unity? Would it not provide a strong impetus, from within Orthodoxy, for reconciliation with the Western Church? Would it not strengthen the life and witness of Eastern Christianity as a whole?

At a time when there is a greater need for unity than perhaps ever before, perhaps it is time to lay aside whatever hinders our unity. Surely our Eastern Catholics share more in common spiritually, theologically, and liturgically with the rest of the East than they do with the West. Perhaps the way forward to unity is to lay claim to their full heritage together with their Eastern brothers and sisters. They can be a strong advocate for unity among all the Orthodox first and foremost, and then with their Latin brothers and sisters.

Ultimately, you must ask yourselves this: what do we risk losing by our unity with the Orthodox? What can we gain for the Lord?

Peace be to all!

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,951
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,951
Dear Sea Knight,

Your proposal is interesting, but I do not think that Byzantine Catholics reuniting with Orthodoxy would change anything on the unity front...unfortunately.

In Christ,
Alice

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
I would have to agree with Alice on her point. I believe that there are others issues in the resolution that need to be addressed before anything regarding the Eastern Catholic Churches can even be contemplated or resolved.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
D
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Offline
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
D
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
Practically speaking, for such a re-union to occur, the "Uniates" (of which I am one) would have to deny the solemnly-defined teachings of the Catholic Church regarding the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, "Papal Infallibilty", to name a few, and would have to blow off all the teachings of the Councils deemed to be Ecumenical by the Catholic Church, after the first seven. Seems like a steep price to pay, especially if you accept all of those teachings.
Probably what will happen, down the road, will be a re-union of Orthodoxy and Catholicism, after all theological and ecclesiological differences are resolved (that, in itself, is a tall order), and a subsequent return of the "Uniate" churches to their original Patriarchates (i.e., Moscow, Constantinople, Antioch, etc.). Given the human element involved, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that day. As one Greek Orthodox priest-friend of mine has said: "In God's good time".


Dn. Robert

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Quote
Originally posted by Apotheoun (on other thread):
I am sure that my present post will be extremely unpopular with some people, but as painful as it is for me to say this, I do not think that the Eastern Catholic Churches will ever be able to be reintegrated into the Orthodox Churches from which they sprang, and I say this mainly because the Catholic East is, and no doubt always will be, heavily Latinized. Moreover, it is still unclear to me whether the Latin Church itself really desires that the Eastern Catholic Churches fully embrace their own liturgical, spiritual, and doctrinal patrimony, especially since this restoration may of necessity involve embracing doctrinal positions that conflict with the dogmatic formulations proclaimed by the Western Church over the course of the last millennium.
I'm going to have to agree. In particular, the current position of the Vatican is that anyone, whether Eastern or Western, in full communion with Rome is supposed to agree, among other things, that the pope has Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction.

On a positive note, though, I see no reason at all why the Eastern Catholic Churches need consider UOJ to be a dogma. I realize this may seem like a very small liberty, but I think it is an important point because it shows that the landscape of the dialogue is not quite so simple as most people make it out to be:

I mean, certainly there is a dialogue between those who consider Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction to be true and those who consider it to be false -- which is, in the main, a dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox. But there is also (or anyhow there is a need for) a dialogue between those who claim that UOJ is a truth which has been dogmatically defined, and those who claim that it is a truth which has never been dogmatically defined -- which is, in the main, a dialogue within Catholicism.

Furthermore, it seems clear that the level of difficulty of the former dialogue depends greatly on the outcome of the latter dialogue: That is to say, if they are correct who say "UOJ is a dogma", then the possibility of reconciliation between Catholics and Orthodox is not so much a matter of mutual rapprochement of sister churches, but rather a question of the Orthodox side repenting of having rejecting a dogma. (Symmetrically, if they are correct who say "UOJ is a heresy", then the possibility of reconciliation between Catholics and Orthodox is not so much a matter of mutual rapprochement of sister churches, but rather a question of the Catholic side repenting of heresy.)

I will be most interested to see what is said about all this in the fall.

God bless,
Peter.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,838
Likes: 2
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,838
Likes: 2
I personally support the complete reintegration of the Eastern Catholic Churches in to their mother Orthodox Churches, but -- as I indicated in the quotation above -- I do not think that the Eastern Catholic Churches will ever be fully de-Latinized, and so that type of reintegration is not likely to happen. In my opinion, it is far more likely that the Roman Church will eventually suppress and absorb the Eastern Catholic Churches into its own ecclesial structure.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
A
AMM Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
Quote
But there is also (or anyhow there is a need for) a dialogue between those who claim that UOJ is a truth which has been dogmatically defined, and those who claim that it is a truth which has never been dogmatically defined -- which is, in the main, a dialogue within Catholicism.
Peter, could you describe the nature of this dialogue and what the arguments are? I recall reading something along these lines written by Archbishop Quinn. Is that part of what you're referring to?

Andrew

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 93
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 93
Originally posted by Dn. Robert
Quote
Practically speaking, for such a re-union to occur, the "Uniates" (of which I am one) would have to deny the solemnly-defined teachings of the Catholic Church regarding the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, "Papal Infallibilty", to name a few,
Originally posted by Peter B.
Quote
But there is also (or anyhow there is a need for) a dialogue between those who claim that UOJ is a truth which has been dogmatically defined, and those who claim that it is a truth which has never been dogmatically defined -- which is, in the main, a dialogue within Catholicism
As an Orthodox Christian, I believe that the theory variously referred to as universal ordinary jurisdiction or immediate papal jurisdiction is more injurious to reunion than the defined Latin doctrines of purgatory, the immaculate conception, or even papal infallability. The doctrine of purgation after death can be given an Orthodox understanding. And both RCs and Orthodox address the Theotokos as Immaculate. As to papal infallability, I believe that it has only been invoked on two occasions and could be clarified. Orthodox may even be willing to admit that an Orthodox Bishop of Rome might possess a certain charism when excercising he teaching authority.

The theory of immediate papal jurisdiction, however, is something that most Orthodox could not admit as it would implicate a radical change in Orthodox Ecclesiology and the nature of episcopal authority.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Quote
Originally posted by Apotheoun:
I personally support the complete reintegration of the Eastern Catholic Churches in to their mother Orthodox Churches, but -- as I indicated in the quotation above -- I do not think that the Eastern Catholic Churches will ever be fully de-Latinized, and so that type of reintegration is not likely to happen. In my opinion, it is far more likely that the Roman Church will eventually suppress and absorb the Eastern Catholic Churches into its own ecclesial structure.
Todd,

Can you explain more what you mean by this? I'm a bit taken aback, if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that the Latin Church will essentially absorb all of the Eastern Catholics, or that Eastern Catholics will function much like the Russian Catholic churches - as satellites under a Latin ordinary?

Not sure how the Melkites will take such a move!

Just curious...

Gordon

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 979
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 979
NO WAY!!!!

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,437
Personally Gordo, I could not see that happening the way it was just explained. How it would be worked out when the time came is almost anyone's guess, but I do not think going under a Latin ordinary would be the way to go.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+


Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
I'm with you there, Father. I see a broader and gradual alignment taking place (such as the Antiochian Orthodox Patriarchate and the Melkite Catholic Patriarchate).

Who knows - only God!

Gordo

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,582
Likes: 1
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,582
Likes: 1
GOOD GRIEF !

There are Latin Ordinaries who don't know what we are even now - and if we had to come under their Care ???????

Please this is too frightening to even contemplate

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,186
It is possible that if some of the Eastern Catholic Churches continue to self destruct and shrink to a small enough size some may be absorbed into the RCs while others will choose to either unite with other ECs that and form one strong EC Church or return to their Orthodox mothers. I do believe that absorbtion into RC or EO would prior to unity between EO and RC would constitute a serious blow to Christianity. Uniting with other ECs awaiting the full unity of the Church would be a very positive event. My hope rests in the solution.

CDL

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
D
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Offline
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
D
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
Quote
The theory of immediate papal jurisdiction, however, is something that most Orthodox could not admit as it would implicate a radical change in Orthodox Ecclesiology and the nature of episcopal authority. [/QB]
I think what is important is to refer back to how things were done in the first milennium, and go from there. Benedict XVI gave that type of signal upon his elevation by donning a pallium which looks more like an Omophor. Some type of arrangement would have to be worked out where, on one hand, the Pope retains the right to exercise his "immediate jurisdiction" in cases of aberration where things get completely out of hand, but also with the understanding that Patriarchal rule, in conjunction with a Synod of Bishops, within a given Patriarchate, is the normal course of things. Such an arrangement would have to be memorialized solemnly in the form of a magisterial document. There is historical support for such a position. Pope St. Clement, who reigned while St. John the Theologian was still alive, intervened directly in Corinth to straighten out a situation gone awry.
Recent Popes, esp. John Paul II, and the present Pope, have expressed an interest in finding a way to exercise the Petrine ministry within First Milennium guidelines.
It must be pointed out that there were instances in the first milennium where reigning Popes came to the aid of great eastern Bishops/Saints who had been unjustly deposed by heretical emperors and their sycophantic bishops. My memory is clouded as to the specifics, but it was either St. John Chrysostom or St. Athanasius of Alexandria (or both) who benefitted from such assistance. Hope this is helpful.

In Christ,
Deacon Robert

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5