www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ukrainian jurisdictions? Who has followers and who doesn't? False priests?

Hello

In addition to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Moscow and the one under Patriarch Filaret in Ukraine, and the two dioceses under the Ecumenical Patriarchate in USA and Canada, these are the other Ukrainian jurisdictions with the exception of vagant groups that I will not list (correct me if I'm wrong):

UKRAINIAN AUTOCEPHALOUS ORTHODOX CHURCH
Exists in Western Ukraine, led by Met. Mefodiy (Kudrianov) and has a section in the USA led by Met. Michael Javchak Champion who also supports a Diocese in Colombia.

http://www.uaoc.org/

UKRAINIAN AUTOCEPHALOUS ORTHODOX CHURCH ("CANONICAL")
Led by Patriarch Moisey (Kulyk) with several bishops outside Ukraine but few known to be in Ukraine.

http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_eng.htm

UKRAINIAN AUTONOMOUS ORTHODOX CHURCH IN AMERICA
Denounced Patriarch Moisey and left his jurisdiction, it has some bishops in Ukraine, a group in the USA and a Diocese in Ecuador.

http://www.uaocamerica.org/PressRoom/News2006.dsp

From what I have seen, the first group (UAOC) seems to be more legitimate than the others, it comes from the original UAOC of Patriarch Mtyslav. However, Met. Michael Javchak Champion received Bishop Odon Abad of Colombia (who had been ordained by a vagant Brazilian group) just like that, without "conditional" ordination or consecration:

http://www.geocities.com//irsocolombia/doc1.htm

The UAOC "Canonical" is under Patriarch Moisey Kulyk who had some relation with the UAOC in USA (the story is complicated and I don't understand it) but then decided to establish his own Church in Ukraine. Surrounded by bishops of dubious origin (vagant conections) he proclaimed himself Patriarch. They have opened a seminary in the US with these characteristics:

http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_196_06_01.htm

The UAOCA under Met. Ioan (Notaro) separated from Moisey after he had proclaimed himself Patriarch and brought many bishops (including some of dubious origin) to this Church. What puzzles me is that they base themselves on a Tomos of Autonomy given by a "Western Rite Metropolia" which is UNDER the UAOCA now:

http://img.forministry.com/F/FF/FF2.../B329F0AC-F749-4D47-9CA0C98D3CDC7333.jpg

My question is, which of these Churches has followers in the Ukraine and a real existence? What's their real presence?

All three Churches have received bishops and priests who're probably not even priests at all. What is the Ecumenical Patriarchate going to do if there is a union of Ukrainian Churches and World Orthodoxy decides to recognize it?

Isn't this a very grave issue?

Thanks!!!

Juan, my brother,

Is it that time again? The annual census of Ukrainian Orthodox ecclesia

For those unfamiliar with this ritual, it's one performed pretty much annually here. Usually some variant on this query is posed and answered, after which we lament the situation and others chime in with expressions of amazement at the way ecclesia multiply among our Ukrainian brothers.

Juan has, however, introduced a new element into it this year - the question of who actually has faithful. In years past, we have not always bothered with that consideration, as it takes some of the fun out of it. (Of course, he has also declined to count in the true vagante, eliminating a potential source of even greater amusement.)

With all due respect to my Ukrainian Orthodox brethren, my apologies for seeming to have fun at your expense, but you have to admit that there aren't many other instances in which so many different religious bodies all claim the use of a common styling :rolleyes: - Old Catholics being the only ones who come immediately to my mind.

Now, as Juan has not only upped the ante, but seems to have thrown a couple of new players into the mix, I'm off to see what I can find.

Many years,

Neil

For those wishing to compare this year's ritual Q&A with past performances, I was able to find the 2004 presentation at Who Is This Group? - editorial license taken with the thread title

It's starting to resemble the multiplicity of Old Calendarist jurisdictions...
FDD

Let's see:

UOC-KP [cerkva.info] - Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate

UOC- MP [pravoslavye.org.ua] - Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate

UOCUSA-EP [ukrainianorthodoxchurchusa.org] - Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the United States of America - Ecumenical Patriarchate

UAOC [uaoc.org] - Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (formerly UAOC-S or Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Sobornopravna) - Metr Mefodiy

From this point onward, claims to canonicity have decreasing points in their favor - and are absolutely non-existent at the bottom of the list (and I've left out several that are of even less legitimacy than any of these).

UAOC-C [soborna.org] - Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - Canonical - Metr Moisey

AUOCA [uaocamerica.org] - Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America - Metr Ioan

UANOC [netministries.org] - Ukrainian Autocephalous National Orthodox Church

UOCA-U [netministries.org] - United Orthodox Church in America - Ukrainian (Ohijchuk succession)

HUAOE [stmichaelacademy.org] - Holy Ukrainian Autocephalic Orthodox Church in Exile

Juan, from what I can deduce thru some searches of the Internet Archives, this Western Metropolia used to be under the UAOC-S before it somehow ended up under Metr Moisey and now under Metr Ioan - that is clear as mud, I know, but it's the best I do.

It looks to me as if Metropolitans Mefodiy, Moisey, and Ioan all have some presence in Ukraine - but how much is a good question - and at least the latter two have, as you deduced, taken in apparent episcopi vagante, Orthodox and Catholic, without much second thought. I'm not convinced that some of this has not occured w/ the UAOC-S as well.

Many years,

Neil

Who has followers? In order to grasp this question one must keep in mind a fundamental principle: it's all done with mirrors!

Fr. Serge

Smoke & mirrors

Look at these news for example:

http://www.soborna.org/news_eng/news_208_06.htm

1. They even accuse one of their former bishops of not being bishop at all! The funny thing is that their Synod knew everything from the beggining, they complain he just gave a photocopy but they accepted him after all, I can't believe.

2. They defrock another bishop who incured in "evil deeds" because the previous bishop (who wasn't a true bishop) took part!

Here you find bishops taking ordination after ordination, denouncing previous consecrations and so on. The line between some of these Churches and vagantism seems so thin.

Have a good day!

You forgot one.

UANAUOCIEBNTFIEOAL-C Ukrainian Autocephalous National Autocephalous(Yes, again) United Orthodox Church In Exile But Not Too Far In Exile Only A Little - Canonical.

It's pronounced just as the acronym reads.

Is that an actual group?!

I think I may have addressed this before,but the group calling itself "Holy Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Exile" was at one time a legitmate jurisdiction under the Patriarch of Constantinople,headed by Archbishops Palladyj and Ihor.I believe the diocese beagan around 1951 because of differances with then Bishop Bohdan(Spilka) who also headed a diocese under Constantinople.The controversial Ukrainian Orthodox priest in Toronto, the late Fr. Vitalij Sahaydakiwsky played a role in the formation of this group.By the mid 60's, both Archbishops had reposed.By the 70's, the jurisdiction was reduced to one priest and one church in NYC,who eventually joined the majority of what is now the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in USA,recognised by Constantinople since 1996.I doubt if the group now using the name "Holy Autocephalous Ukrainian orthodox Church in Exile" has any real link to the original diocese, any claims notwithstanding.

Father Al,

Your comments on the convoluted history is absolutely accurate. The waters were certainly muddied throughout by the involvement of such controversial figures as Bishop Christopher Contogeorge (whose canonical status was, as memory serves me, ultimately the basis of a settlement to which the GOA agreed as a way to end to an ongoing civil court battle), and the interventions of the Alexandrian Patriarchate, which seems to have been bent on granting recognition to all claimants who sought its omophor, regardless of their then-standing with other hierarchical jurisdictions.

The current Holy Ukrainian Autocephalic Orthodox Church in Exile heralds copies of much documentation [stmichaelacademy.org] in support of its authenticity/canonicity. However, I know of several other, even more canonically suspect, entities on the web which likewise display one or more of the same texts. The "we give up and withdraw our excommunication of Christopher Contogeorge" letter from the GOA is a talisman for any number of vagante ecclesia.

Frankly, the history of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the United States of America (EP) [ukrainianorthodoxchurchusa.org] and the history of the Holy Ukrainian Autocephalic Orthodox Church in Exile [stmichaelacademy.org] , especially read in succession, are enough to give pause (and a migraine) to any episcopal genealogist.

Many years,

Neil, who paused in horror for a second when reading Andrew's post

Juan,

The only thing I can say positive about it, is that it's very helpful that they publish the details for the benefit of those of us who try to keep score. For instance, by reading this, one gets to discover that Metropolitan Moisey's Ecuadorean prelate is apparently going back to Metropolitan Ioan.

Of course, I know of no other jurisdiction that posts a photo of its Synod in session and then posts, immediately under it, declarations of the excommunication of most of those at the table. Were I the Metropolitan, I think I would have cropped the Synodal photo to save myself embarressment :rolleyes:

Many years,

Neil

Archbishop Chrysostom, the Ecuadoran prelate, is a very polemic character among the Orthodox in Latin-America.

He did receive the sympathy of many when he broke with the Antiochian Orthodox Church (the Church that made him a priest) as their bishop is against missionary activities and seems to view Orthodoxy as his own private club.

He was under Moisey for very few time as he broke together with Metropolitan Ioan and the rest of the clergy (Chrysostom claimed that Moisey had placed particles of the Eucharist instead of relics of martyrs as he had said, inside the antimension).

He managed to expand Orthodoxy very much in Ecuador and other South-American countries, creating monasteries and parishes but later on, some of their priests complained and left.

Although not Ukrainian (it sounds Italian!!), what about the "Milan Synod?" Who are these people? A priest I trust with my very soul said they're fake. A monk I know said they are legit.

Some newcomers to EO have no way of knowing the difference. Hence the above-mentioned priest (now GOA) was baptized by Matthewites.

Go in and out the window,
Go in and out the window,
Go in and out the window,
as we have done before!

The whole topic is disedifying, time-wasting and ultimately boring.

Fr. Serge