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Last year I spent time with a hieromonk of the Antiochan Patriarchate. He told me that he can ordain men to the priesthood and diaconate, since he is an archmandrite and has been licensed to do so by his bishop.
This brings up the question: can priests ordain priests or does this power pertain solely to bishops.
Also, a bull of Pope Boniface IX granted the Abbot of Saint-Osith, London the power to ordain priests, even though he was NOT a bishop.
Secondly, Pope Martin V granted the same provision to the Abbot of Altzelle in Saxony. Both dispensations were granted in the 1400s.
I also believe that there is a tradition in the Alexandrian Patriarchate that allows a certain number of priests to consecrate a bishop. Similar things have been done in one the Nestorian churches.
So what do the theologians say? Can a priest ordain another priest?
in Christ,
Marshall
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Dear Marshall, CHRIST IS BORN! The archimandrite in question is either very uninformed or you misunderstood? With permission of his bishop/metropolitan, an archimandrite CAN tonsure to the clerical state and bless readers and even sub-deacons, but he canNOT ordain to major orders of diaconate or priesthood. The minor orders of Reader and Sub-Diaconate are basically 'blessings' rather than (strictly speaking) ordinations in the Eastern Church.
Hope this helps?
In Him Who is Born for us,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
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P.S. The FULLNESS of the priesthood is the Office of Bishop and he is the IMAGE---hence only he who has the fullness can give a portion of that to others and share it with them (the presbyters).
The Eastern Church has not validated presbyterial consecrations since the very early days of the Church...and when it was sometimes done, my understanding is that it was BEFORE there was a great distinction between the bishops and priests.
In Him,
+Father Archimandrite Gregory
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
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Dear Marshall, as the good Archimandrite has mentioned above, only the Bishop can lay hands to ordain to either the Priesthood or Diaconate. In times of necessity certain archimandrites and archpriests have been blessed by bishops to tonsure readers and set aside subdeacons.
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Amen.
Dear Marshall,
I am interested in more info regarding those bulls you mention.
As I understood those bulls (if they're the ones I'm thinking of) were often understood wrongly--but if you have any more info that would be great.
Lt.
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It is the common opinion of the great majority of those theologians who have considered the question that the Pope who attempted to authorize a priest to ordain deacons and priests was acting ultra vires (in other words, exceeding his own authority) and that such ordinations were invalid. A minority view is that the Pope, using his supreme authority, can authorize such ordinations in cases of genuine and extreme necessity - but this is the view of a small and dwindling minority. It would be the same if some Pope were to attempt to authorize, or even order, a layman to "celebrate Mass" - no priest, no Mass! Incognitus
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Dear Fr. Archimandrite Gregory, I do recall reading in Bishop Kallistos'(Timothy Ware's) "The Orthodox Church", that an Archimandrite or an Archpriest may tonsure a Reader acting as the Bishop's deputy.However, nothing is said about the subdiaconate nor have I ever heard of any case where a Priest could ordain a subdeacon.I'm no theologian, but Readers are tonsured, whereas Subdeacons are ordained.Therefore, I don't see how anyone EXCEPT a Bishop could ordain a subdeacon.I myself was ordained a Subdeacon for 3months before accepting the diaconate.My former Archbishop in the OCA told us that in Tsarist Russia Readers could be drafted into the military, but not Subdeacons.My current Archbishop in ROCOR has a policy of not ordaining subdeacons for parishes.That is just his personnal policy and does not reflect ROCOR as a whole.It stems from the fact that he had had some married subdeacons leave their wives and seek to re-marry which meant they had to be canonically deposed.
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Dear Father Al, CHRIST IS BORN! +EVLOGITE PATER! I think that this is the point Father: Only an Archimandrite who is head of a monastery can set aside sub-deacons FOR THAT MONASTERY with permission from his bishop. It is, I believe more an exception than the custom.
Kissing your holy right hand,
I am your poor brother in Christ,
+Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
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Originally posted by Marshall:
a bull of Pope Boniface IX granted the Abbot of Saint-Osith, London the power to ordain priests, even though he was NOT a bishop.
Secondly, Pope Martin V granted the same provision to the Abbot of Altzelle in Saxony. Both dispensations were granted in the 1400s.
I also believe that there is a tradition in the Alexandrian Patriarchate that allows a certain number of priests to consecrate a bishop. Similar things have been done in one the Nestorian churches. Marshall, Abbots may confer the tonsure and minor orders on those of their house. Even Abbots vere nullius dioecesis ("of no diocese") ( e.g., the Mitred Abbot of the Territorial Abbey and Exarchic Monastery of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata of the Italo-Greek/Albanian Catholics) who have extra-territorial authority and, generally, exercise authority equal to that of a bishop, may only confer minor orders on secular candidates, who are otherwise under their quasi-episcopal jurisdiction, by special grant of privilege to do so. (the) Council of Trent, however, decreed that "it shall not henceforth be lawful for abbots, . . . howsoever exempted, . . . to confer the tonsure and minor orders on any but their regular subjects, nor shall the said abbots grant letters dimissory to any secular clerics to be ordained by others" [Can. et Decret. Conc. Trid. (ed. Richter et Schulte), p. 197]. From this decree of the Council it is quite clear that Abbots still have the right to confer the tonsure and minor orders, but it is equally clear that they may confer them lawfully only on their regular subjects. Novices, therefore. oblates, regulars of another order or congregation, and seculars cannot be advanced by the Abbot. Even the Abbots styled vere nullius, who exercise an episcopal jurisdiction in their territory, may not without a special privilege give minor orders to their secular subjects [Santi, Praelect. Jur. Can. (New York, 1898), I, 125 sq., and Can. et Decret. Cone. Trid. (ed. Richter et Schulte), 197 sq., [ newadvent.org] As to the early practice in the Alexandrian Patriarchate, [qb]There is much discussion as to the nature of the early episcopate in Egypt. Tradition seems to point to a collective episcopate consisting of twelve presbyters with a bishop at their head. St. Jerome, in a letter to Evangelus (P.L., XXII, 1194), insisting on the dignity of the priesthood, says, "At Alexandria, from the time of St. Mark the Evangelist to that of the Bishops Heraclas and Dionysius [middle of the third century] the presbyters of Alexandria used to call bishop one they elected from among themselves and raised to a higher standing, just as the army makes an emperor, or the deacons call archdeacon, one from their own body whom they know to be of active habits". This is confirmed by: (1) a passage of a letter of Severus of Antioch, written from Egypt between 518 and 538. Speaking of a certain Isaias who adduced an ancient canon to prove the validity of his episcopal ordination although performed by a single bishop, Severus says: "It was also customary for the bishop of the city famous for the orthodoxy of its faith, the city of Alexandria, to be appointed by priests. Later, however, in agreement with a canon which obtained everywhere, the sacramental institution of their bishop took place by the hands of the bishops." (2) A passage of the annals of Eutychius, Melchite Patriarch of Alexandria who flourished in the early decades of the tenth century: "St. Mark along with Ananias [Anianus] made twelve priests to be with the patriarch; so that when this should be wanting they might elect one out of the twelve priests and the remaining eleven should lay their hands upon his head and bless him and appoint him patriarch; and should after this choose a man of note and make him priest with them in the place of the one who had been made patriarch from among the twelve priests, in such sort that they should always be twelve. This custom, that the priests of Alexandria should appoint the patriarch from the twelve priests, did not come to an end till the time of Alexander patriarch of Alexandria, one of the three hundred and eighteen [the fathers of Nic�a] who forbade the presbyters [in the future] to appoint the patriarch, but decreed that on the death of the patriarch the bishops should convene and appoint the patriarch, and he furthermore decreed that on the death of the patriarch they should elect a man of note from whichsoever place, from among those twelve priests or not . . . and appoint him" (tr. from the Arabic text ed. Cheikho in "Corpus. Script. Christ. Orientalium; Scriptores Arabici", Ser. IIIa. tom. VI, 95, 96). [ newadvent.org] From the same source: A council held at Alexandria (340) declared the orders conferred by Caluthus, a presbyter, null and void (Athanas., "Apol. contra Arianos", ii). Nor can objection be raised from the fact that chorepiscopi are known to have ordained priests, as there can be no doubt that some chorepiscopi were in bishops' orders (Gillman, "Das Institut der Chorbisch�fe im Orient," Munich, 1903; Hefele-Leclercq, "Conciles", II, 1197-1237). No one but a bishop can give any orders now without a delegation from the pope, but a simple priest may be thus authorized to confer minor orders and the subdiaconate. It is generally denied that priests can confer priests' orders, and history, certainly, records no instance of the exercise of such extraordinary ministry. The diaconate cannot be conferred by a simple priest, according to the majority of theologians. This is sometimes questioned, as Innocent VIII is said to have granted the privilege to Cistercian abbots (1489), but the genuineness of the concession is very doubtful. [ newadvent.org] Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Father, bless! Dear Fr. Al, the cases mentioned of archimandrites setting aside subdeacons that I know of occurred under Soviet persecution when the bishops were either in hiding or imprisoned and they gave a specific special blessing to do so. I think it is safe to say these were very extraordinary circumstances and very specific episcopal economia. The cases of tonsuring readers by archimandrites are more common and ustavs can be found which allow this practice. I understand in Siberia and other far-flung places where episcopal visits may be few and far between this practice still exists. Although a different service, in monastic practice the Hegumen himself tonsures a new monk, not the bishop. But as Neil menioned above, this is only extended to those members of the monastic community itself and dependencies (sketes, convents of women under that monastery's spiritual care, etc.). My current Archbishop in ROCOR has a policy of not ordaining subdeacons for parishes.That is just his personnal policy and does not reflect ROCOR as a whole.It stems from the fact that he had had some married subdeacons leave their wives and seek to re-marry which meant they had to be canonically deposed. This is unfortunate that the bishop would not allow subdeacons to serve in parishes. In the Old Rite subdeacons have special duties including being the first psaltist/cantor for certain parts of the services as well as serving at the Altar. Also there are prescribed roles for the subdeacons during a hierarchal Liturgy and having one or two in a parish certainly helps out when the Bishop does visit the parish. They can also help out with catechesis, instruction, etc. assisting the pastor.
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Dear Marshall,
The other participants have answered well. There was obviously a misunderstanding or error.
Allow me to add this:
The "Choriepiskopi" or "Country Bishops" of the early Church were, in effect auxilliary bishops under the bishop of the the local metropolis or city, often called a Metropolitan. They (the choriepiskopi) are authorized by the canons to ordain subdeacons and tonsure readers, but not to ordain deacons and priests.
Much about their role remains unclear, but they are mentioned in the canons and in periferal sources.
Thus Mitred Archpriests and Archimandrites are sometimes given the functions of the "Country Bishops," but only at the pleasure of and under the authority of a full diocesan bishop (a metroploitan in the early Church).
In Christ,
Andrew
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Hopefully, I'll see him again and try to clarify the situation. But I'm almost certain he claimed to be able to ordain priests and deacons. I thought this was very strange - that's why I remember it.
Thanks for all the insightful posts!
in Christ,
Marshall
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Dear Irish Melkite,
It seems that the entry about the Alexandrian Patriarchate says that St Mark set up the patriarchate to operate with the patriarch (a bishop) and twelve priests. But, if I'm reading this correctly, when the patriarch died, the 12 elected one amoungst them and made that man the patriarch - the bishop.
Granted, this came to an end at Nicea, but is it true that presbyteral ordination occured in Alexandria prior to Nicea?
If so, this means that priests were not simply ordaining another priest, but a priest to the episcopate. Very interesting.
in Christ,
Marshall
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Belmont Abbey (near Charlotte, North Carolina) was a nullius for most of its history, though I believe it no longer is. It might be helpful to inquire of the abbey under what circumstances the Abbot was able to ordain, and to what degrees (if the Abbot was simultaneously a bishop, which is quite possible, this could get complicated). Incognitus
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Fr. Gregory and Fr. Al:
I have been told by Orthodox clergy that the Greek Orthodox Church considers the order of subdeacon to be a minor order while the Russian Orthodox Church considers the subdeacon's order to be a major order. I remember a discussion I was part of between some Greek students and a Russian priest about this many years ago. It seems that a Greek subdeacon can marry after ordination, but a Russian subdeacon cannot--as Father Al notes. I wondered because a few years ago a Greek bishop visited the parish in Altoona and blessed a number of the young altar servers as subdeacons.
Am I correct that there is a variation in practice here?
Asking the Lord's blessing from each of your blessed hands at this Holy Season,
BOB
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