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I don't know if asking about the Maronites would be appropriate here because this is a Byzantine Forum and the Maronites are not Byzantines in the strict sense of the word.

I do have a question,so maybe you can give me some references or provide some links?

I was told in one thread somewhere (the search machine isn't helping) that there were some latinizations of the Maronites and that the bishops were directed to remove these latinizations.

If this is true, is there a document that I can access?

Many years ago, I do remember seeing a Maronite Church here in Los Angeles which announced the times of the novus ordo English Mass on their sign outside the church. Was this just an accommodation to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles?

What are those latinizations?

Shlomo Elizabeth Maria,

I am a Maronite and I will be more than willing to help you. First, I would point out that in NO WAY are the Maronites nor any other Antiochene-Edessan Church have Byzantine practices within our liturgy.

As for the Latinization promblem; it is true that our Church was the most highly Latinized of the Eastern Catholic Churches, but we are working hard to remove them. You can see the documents that you asked for at either Eparch of St. Maron U.S.A. [stmaron.org] or at Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon [usamaronite.org] . Clink on Patriarchal Synod and see what was passed.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Yuhannon:

I could not access Our Lady of Lebanon because I have linux and do not have access to their type of sofeware. The other site has nothing on latinizations when I did a search. Could you please help me find such a document?

I attended a Maronite Divine Liturgy in Atlanta Georgia in 1974 where the older priest and his wife served a nice dinner afterward outside in the garden. The Divine Liturgy was in Aramaic and was so beautiful. That was the first time I had ever encountered a married priest and his holiness of life was evident.

My aunt and my father both told me that that was the church of my ancestors, but it was a secret unfortunately, as my ancestors were ashamed of their French Lebanese ancestry when they moved to America. Our public school system does a number of its students.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth Maria

Thanks,

Elizabeth,

The Forum name aside, it's really Pan-Eastern, not Byzantine. In fact, we have many non-Byzantine members, including Latins and Protestants who are interested in or have some other ties to the East, Oriental Orthodox and Catholics, Maronites, and Chaldeans (we lack any Assyrian members, AFAIK). Thus, questions about any of the Eastern or Oriental Churches, Catholic or Orthodox, are always appropriate and welcome.

The Maronites, like all the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, have been told to return to their heritage and eliminate the latinizations that have accrued over the centuries. For the Maronites, this has been particularly difficult since their zeal (and that of the French missionaries who encountered them) to assure their Catholicity resulted in an especially thorough destruction of many of the records which documented their liturgical practices, devotions, etc. Thus, in reforming centuries-old practices, they are frequently examining the practices of the Syriac Catholic, the Church which probably is closest in practice to what they were historically.

I know the documents of which my brother, Yuhannon, speaks, but couldn't locate them at the eparchial sites. I was finally able to find a bookmarked reference to one of them. It is on the website of the Eparchy of Saint Maron, under the "Spirituality" link.

See: http://www.stmaron.org/1qurbono.html

As to what the latinizations were, they didn't differ significantly from those described here recently as to Byzantines and others - church architecture and furnishings, vestments, devotions, liturgical practices, etc.

Regarding your inability to access Our Lady of Lebanon's site, it may be the flash media on their "splash page". You probably can access it if you enter beyond that page - try skipping the intro and enter it at:

http://www.usamaronite.org/index2.cfm

Many years,

Neil

Thank you so very much, Neil and Yuhannon.

Does anyone have advice on how to approach high ranking clergy (such as corepiscopa or bishop) on implementing the authentic Tradition of one's particular Church? My Church currently uses unleavened bread (even tho leavened can easily be made or even bought), has Eucharistic Adoration (which I love, but is not part of the Syro-Malankara Tradition), has strictly celibate clergy except for very rare converts (which is a very bad example for Orthodox), prays Western Rosary over Eastern, very rarely has Ramsho (Vespers) or Saphro (Matins) [although our Canons state we must pray 7 times daily {Ramsho (Evening) prayer (Vespers), Sootoro (meaning "Protection') prayer (Compline), the Psalm 91, is sung at this prayer "He who sits under the protection of the Most High", Lilyo (Midnight) prayer, Saphro (Morning) prayer (Matins), Tloth sho`een prayer (Third Hour, prime, 9 a.m.), Sheth sho`een prayer (Sixth Hour, Sext, noon, 12 p.m.), Tsha` sho`een prayer (Ninth Hour, Nones, 3 p.m.)], and has very few icons but uses statues.

I don't know what to do at this point, so I attend the current Latin Rite more than my own.

Also, the few Chaldean and Syriac Catholic Church pictures I have seen have the priest facing 'ad occidentum' position - why is this?

The Byzantines seem to take the call to authenticity seriously, but the Syriac Churches seem to be lagging behind.

Shlomo Michael Thoma,

You may wish to go to the on line Maronite Store connected to the above links. They have all the material that you need.

As for your point about us lagging behind, I then say you have found your mission. Go into your Church and help them get with the program. The priest can not do it alone.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo Elizabeth Maria,

I have some interesting News for you. Since your Dad told you the Maronite Church is the Church of your ancestors then you are a Maronite even if you are not registered with us. If you wish to receive instruction then I would be more than happy to help you. You can e-mail me privately thru the board. I would also recommend that you run not walk out and get Captivated By Your Teachings: An Adult Maronite Resource Book by Abouna Anthony Salim. It is written for a Western audience so it will help you find your roots.

Further, if you know of others that are like you, then please put them in touch with me. I am helping to get a proper census of the Maronites in America, as well as get them back to their spiritual roots.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Hi Elizabeth,

Do you remember which parish it might have been?

St. Jude the Apostle is actually a bi-ritual parish while the Maronites build a church for their own parish. At the moment, there are no regularly scheduled Maronite Liturgies in the parish church, but it is still the Maronite's official parish.

So, obviously our bulletins and signs advertize only the Latin masses (which, sadly, you chose to call "Novus Ordo").

Shalom,
Memo

Dear Michael Thoma,

You write "My Church currently uses unleavened bread (even tho leavened can easily be made or even bought), has Eucharistic Adoration (which I love, but is not part of the Syro-Malankara Tradition), has strictly celibate clergy except for very rare converts (which is a very bad example for Orthodox), prays Western Rosary over Eastern, very rarely has Ramsho (Vespers) or Saphro (Matins) [although our Canons state we must pray 7 times daily {Ramsho (Evening) prayer (Vespers), Sootoro (meaning �Protection�) prayer (Compline), the Psalm 91, is sung at this prayer "He who sits under the protection of the Most High", Lilyo (Midnight) prayer, Saphro (Morning) prayer (Matins), Tloth sho`een prayer (Third Hour, prime, 9 a.m.), Sheth sho`een prayer (Sixth Hour, Sext, noon, 12 p.m.), Tsha` sho`een prayer (Ninth Hour, Nones, 3 p.m.)], and has very few icons but uses statues. "

After picking myself up off the floor - I was badly shocked - I have one comment and one bit of advice:

a) the comment: the celibacy of the clergy is a condition imposed by Pope Pius XI when the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church came into being. But all is not lost. The Syrian Catholic Patriarchate has restored the ordination of married priests. Moreover, Pius XI also made it clear that there was no possibility of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church having a Catholicos. Well, the Syro-Malankara Church now has a Catholicos. Hence it makes sense for the Catholicos and the Synod to "request" the lifting of the requirement of celibacy of the priests (I take it for granted that married men can now be ordained to the diaconate without difficulty). Meanwhile, with modern transportation, married candidates for the priesthood might easily be sent to Damascus, ordained by the Syrian Catholic Patriarch, and sent back to India, or wherever it is they are to serve.

Advice: if you have already approached your own priest and bishop and the liturgical atrocities you describe are continuing, a carefully written, respectful, courteous letter to the Catholicos might just help. In any event, His Beatitude should certainly be making visits to the diaspora (including North America) regularly, and if the Catholics knows of these problems in advance, he will have some idea of how to deal with them. Incidentally, the Melkites in the USA and elsewhere in the diaspora had similar problems fifty or sixty years ago; things CAN improve. So do not lose hope.

Remember: do not grumble. Protest, but do not grumble!

Incognitus

It's my understanding that the Syro-Malankara Church actualy started as an Orthodox renewal movement meant to re-organize the Church and to re-ffirm discipline. Mar Ivanios, the leader of this movement, wanted his priests to be monastic before they attempted the union with Rome, so it wasn't a real impossition wasn't it?

Monasticism is a voluntary undertaking. Mandatory celibacy of the clergy, which is what was imposed on the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (and by Rome, not by Mar Ivanios), is not voluntary. If that's not an imposition, I don't know what is.

Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

Thank you for your suggestions (and I ask for your prayers). I do not think the Malankara Church will send married men to Damascus as it is a Church sui iuris and not under the Syriac Patriarch (although we do consider him a great Patriarch). The only way to restore the Church is through it's own people - lay and ordained. I am sad that it is taking such a long time when we have Syriac and Malankara Orthodox in our presence intermingling - yet the transition isn't taking place. Infact, Eucharistic Adoration seems to have increased and leavened bread forgotten.

Keep the Syro-Malankara Church (and me) in your prayers.

God bless

Re: latinization (or de-latinization) of Maronite liturgy

I visited a Maronite liturgy a few months ago. I noticed that they said the "filioque" in the creed, but I also noticed something else: at some other point in the liturgy, the priest said a prayer which spoke of the Holy Spirit as proceeding from the Father. But I don't remember the complete prayer.

So I have two questions. Can anyone provide me with the text of that prayer? And is that prayer used in all Maronite liturgies, or does it vary from parish to parish?

-Peter.

Peter,

It's my understanding either from Yuhannon (our resident Maronite member) or an article on liturgical changes at one of the eparchial sites (think I may have linked it above), that the Maronites are in the process of effecting a change in the recitation of the Creed, but that it hasn't yet been fully implemented (the non-Byzantine Catholic Churches are generally moving more slowly in de-latinization than we Byzantines, in my experience).

However, I don't recollect another prayer in the Maronite Service of the Holy Mysteries in which the procession of the Holy Spirit is recited. There's a copy of the liturgical text at The Service of the Mysteries According to the Rite of the Antiochene Maronite Catholic Church [ecah.homestead.com] . Perhaps, if you read through it, you can identify the prayer you heard; I skimmed it quickly to verify my recollection and didn't see any other mention of it.

Many years,

Neil